A few more videos

[Gareth]

How much of a disadvantage are two wheels when braking into a bend?

[GTR1400MAN]

Incidentally on motor or pedal bike I choose not to counter steer but rather push down on the handlebar to get the bike to lean in whilst ...

You can't choose not to counter steer. It is the only way a bike steers. Whatever you are doing is inducing counter steer.

[GTR1400MAN]

The way I see it is that, like so much else in driving, flexibility is the key. For those bends where the limit point extends before or at hinting/steering input then clearly trail braking (as applicable in road use not track) is not feasible as at the moment the limit point moves away the throttle is applied. However for bends where the limit point is static or moving closer is when trail braking might be considered as a wise tool to use. Downhill bends, or decreasing radius bends will usually require trail braking. Occasionally there are bends where trail braking, in the track sense, may work well but this doesn't happen often in my view.
I am one of those in favour of following the advice in Roadcraft, that Roadcraft and IPSGA should be used flexibly and are not cast in stone. In other words apply common sense and decide what is the best thing to do.

Agreed and I do cover those situations in the video on trail braking.

The issue I have is the sheer amount of advice on YouTube etc. telling riders that they must trail brake and anyone who says not is an old fuddy duddy. My video, and the one from Roadcraft Nottingham, came from the frustration of nothing countering this "king's new clothes" flood of videos and online articles from the established Roadcraft proponents. I've even seen a couple of IAM bike groups share/promote these pro trail braking videos.

[GTR1400MAN]

How much of a disadvantage are two wheels when braking into a bend?

Err, in a car if it slides a little you may tense up a little, on a bike the likelihood is you are going down as the front wheel does the majority of the braking.

Plus points of braking on a bike is you can control front/rear balance as the brakes (on most bikes) are independent.

Perhaps that isn't what you were asking?

[Horse]

How much of a disadvantage are two wheels when braking into a bend?

As long as you have sufficient grip, not at all.

Do something, or combination of somethings, to exceed that and it can get 'noisy'. Cars tend not to fall over as easily. Overdo the front and it can tuck in very quickly, overdo the back and it can slide out (low side fall). Biggest problem can be if the tyres slide then regain grip, then all the bike & rider momentum carry on into a highside over the top, not good.

For braking, the length and weight distribution (front/back) affects braking in a few ways.

[Horse]

It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn.

Good theory ... but ...

Have you ever heard of anyone reaching the limits of grip so that they can't steer?

Don't think I have? And stunt riders seem to manage with the front wheel aloft.

Or even ....

[jcochrane]

The way I see it is that, like so much else in driving, flexibility is the key. For those bends where the limit point extends before or at hinting/steering input then clearly trail braking (as applicable in road use not track) is not feasible as at the moment the limit point moves away the throttle is applied. However for bends where the limit point is static or moving closer is when trail braking might be considered as a wise tool to use. Downhill bends, or decreasing radius bends will usually require trail braking. Occasionally there are bends where trail braking, in the track sense, may work well but this doesn't happen often in my view.
I am one of those in favour of following the advice in Roadcraft, that Roadcraft and IPSGA should be used flexibly and are not cast in stone. In other words apply common sense and decide what is the best thing to do.

Agreed and I do cover those situations in the video on trail braking.

The issue I have is the sheer amount of advice on YouTube etc. telling riders that they must trail brake and anyone who says not is an old fuddy duddy. My video, and the one from Roadcraft Nottingham, came from the frustration of nothing countering this "king's new clothes" flood of videos and online articles from the established Roadcraft proponents. I've even seen a couple of IAM bike groups share/promote these pro trail braking videos.

That seems strange. Why continue braking when you could be accelerating because the limit point is extending? Not actually asking you, thinking out loud. Has no-one asked the video makers that question?

[Horse]

Why continue braking when you could be accelerating because the limit point is extending?

Have a look at the one (Bret Tkacs) that I linked. He suggests a 3 stage process with TB as #2, moving to that as a crossover just as the exit is visible. I think

It's the clearest I've seen anyone explain it for application, but I still don't like or fully understand it (possibly with former leading to latter).

[jcochrane]

Why continue braking when you could be accelerating because the limit point is extending?

Have a look at the one (Bret Tkacs) that I linked. He suggests a 3 stage process with TB as #2, moving to that as a crossover just as the exit is visible. I think

It's the clearest I've seen anyone explain it for application, but I still don't like or fully understand it (possibly with former leading to latter).

Thanks I'll have a look.

[jcochrane]

Ive had a look at the video. The bend he uses as an example is a tight right hand bend, with rocks on the inside, blocking the view of the road surface. (They ride on the right in the video so a left hand bend for us.) The bend has a static then decreasing limit point up to the apex where the limit point extends. So the presenter suggest trail braking to the point that the view opens up at the apex and then transition on acceleration whilst coming off the brake. I have no problem with that. What is not covered in the video is bends where the limit point starts to extend before or at turn in. I wonder if he would still suggest trail braking in those circumstances?