A few more videos

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janetwise-griggs
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Re: A few more videos

Postby janetwise-griggs » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:07 pm

It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn. As for late braking ... It's called a low-side.... As you ease off the front brake you start applying the throttle, so it's not late braking as such.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: A few more videos

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:51 pm

janetwise-griggs wrote:It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn. As for late braking ... It's called a low-side.... As you ease off the front brake you start applying the throttle, so it's not late braking as such.

Did you see the earlier video about Trail Braking? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_ei1Egabvo)

How does "It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn." fit into Roadcraft and IPSGA?
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

janetwise-griggs
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Re: A few more videos

Postby janetwise-griggs » Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:29 pm

I don't know how this fits in with Roadcraft and IPSGA either; Speed and gears? I was just saying this is the theory behind it, the emphasis being on making progress. I suppose in terms of Roadcraft you can get the bike to turn more easily without losing too much speed. No I haven't watched the video either, as I don't want to spend my time watching YouTube the only video I watched recently was yours and Cornering Theory#7 which does not advocate trail braking. I am sorry but I thought the conversation was "Why on earth do people do this?" I was trying to give you an honest answer which was given to me by someone who has safely ridden a bike for 46 years.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: A few more videos

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:43 pm

Apologies, I took your comment as your benefit.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

Gareth
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Re: A few more videos

Postby Gareth » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:30 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:
janetwise-griggs wrote:It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn.

How does "It's to transfer load onto the front wheel so you have more grip when you counter steer to start the turn." fit into Roadcraft and IPSGA

How doesn't it?

I mean, the rider makes an assessment, plans their approach such that they will change gear in the bend, chooses their line, adjusts the speed according to their plan, changes gear and accelerates.

The question isn't an absolute of "is this safe?" but, rather, "is this safe enough"? I mean, it's easy to think in absolutes, that we're attempting to follow the 'one true way' but it's really a continuum of trade-off, with the rider choosing a smaller cock-up margin in some cases.

Are we maximising our safety when we go out without needing to? Of course not. So it's not a stretch to choose our own safety margins by including techniques not included in Roadcraft ... remind me again, does the good book encourage counter steering?

I probably shouldn't be putting my oar in here, not being a rider, but the same argument pretty much applies to driving. Each of us works to different safety margins, the really big deal is how consistently we adhere to our chosen margin. I've seen great drivers use techniques to good effect that I don't, and I very strongly prefer drivers can do the basics and have a very good understanding before venturing into techniques with a smaller margin of safety.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: A few more videos

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:57 am

Gareth wrote: ... remind me again, does the good book encourage counter steering?

Yeah, it does ;)

Well I'm not so sure about encourage, rather explain it, as that's the only way to get round a corner on a bike

The issue for me is that to trail brake you will be seriously overlapping phases and the end result of not getting it right is the front wheel tucking under. The safety aspect of the system is getting the speed off before entering the hazard (the corner), not still making adjustments as you are already in it and committed.

Encouraging trail braking, encourages more corner entry speed and riders already regularly run out of road and explore the scenery.

I'd say the same when driving the car. Within the NSL on UK roads, there is no need carry the speed in. Those fractions of a second lost on entry are easily replaced as we accelerate out. Modern vehicles, in the right gear will accelerate easily replacing the lost speed.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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Re: A few more videos

Postby Gareth » Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:52 pm

I wonder how far down this hole goes ...

From the car point of view I think almost everyone is tapering off the braking when starting to steer. It's extremely hard not to do it. So, I think, it's merely a matter of degree. And, if it's a matter of degree, then, presumably, people can get fairly good as playing in the range between none and too much. Do they leave anything in hand in case of the unforeseen? Well, isn't that what 'advanced' is all about?

Perhaps I'm a bit odd because, for my own pleasure and satisfaction, I like to have completed braking, and have changed gear, and be confidently back on the accelerator, before starting to steer[*]. Again, I only drive, so I don't know how it is for riders, but by trying (and mostly failing) to do this, it's easy to see that pretty much everyone else doesn't even try and plays lip service to Roadcrafts suggestion to have completed everything before the bend.

So, given my own predilection I get that others prefer to do it differently, and the thoughtful ones are trying to hone the skills of superior judgement with a smooth mid-bend transition off braking and onto the throttle, handling the weight shift with aplomb, while the thoughtless continue to sometimes make gaps in the scenery for cross-views.


[*] so that I can be ready to start chasing the limit point at the point it starts to run away ;-)
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: A few more videos

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:05 pm

Gareth wrote:Perhaps I'm a bit odd because, for my own pleasure and satisfaction, I like to have completed braking, and have changed gear, and be confidently back on the accelerator, before starting to steer[*].

[*] so that I can be ready to start chasing the limit point at the point it starts to run away ;-)

We are on the same page, (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA2n-fT3CBw) though I don't like the 'chase the limit point' sound bite due to bends that tighten up.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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jcochrane
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Re: A few more videos

Postby jcochrane » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:10 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:
jcochrane wrote:I don't understand the first question.

For me in the situation you describe I'd cover the brakes (even in my car), but not have them on. It's easier on the bike as all the controls are readily to hand/feet all the time.

Maybe a light touch on the brake rather than merely covering the brake would marginally increase stopping distance, add an extra level of safety and kept the brake lights on.

Incidentally on motor or pedal bike I choose not to counter steer but rather push down on the handlebar to get the bike to lean in whilst leaning slightly in the opposite direction to the attitude of the bike, to apply the correct amount of counter balance, and apply some varying pressure on the outside pedal. Hands, body and outer foot working together. Sorry to be contoversal as I know many advocate counter steering but Ive found what I described provides greater accuracy, over counter steering, particularly at high speed, during the critical initiating phase. Just my take on things and not suggesting that those who like to counter steer shouldn't. I accept it is a popular choice and generally taught. Just not for me.

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jcochrane
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Re: A few more videos

Postby jcochrane » Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:07 am

The way I see it is that, like so much else in driving, flexibility is the key. For those bends where the limit point extends before or at hinting/steering input then clearly trail braking (as applicable in road use not track) is not feasible as at the moment the limit point moves away the throttle is applied. However for bends where the limit point is static or moving closer is when trail braking might be considered as a wise tool to use. Downhill bends, or decreasing radius bends will usually require trail braking. Occasionally there are bends where trail braking, in the track sense, may work well but this doesn't happen often in my view.
I am one of those in favour of following the advice in Roadcraft, that Roadcraft and IPSGA should be used flexibly and are not cast in stone. In other words apply common sense and decide what is the best thing to do.


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