One for Horse? Countersteering

Topics relating to Advanced Riding on bikes
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jont-
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One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby jont- » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:07 pm

Ok, it's on a push bike but does the same apply to motorbikes?


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Horse
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:36 pm

I'll have a watch tomorrow :bike: :biker:
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:35 am

Countersteering or positive steering. We cover that on the IAM courses.

Most have never thought about it and when they do it does their head in. Once you actually start using it consciously (push the bar of the direction you want to go) it can make a huge difference to a rider's fluidity. Just don't push too hard the first time you try it, as it doesn't require a lot of pressure ... though it increases with speed.

Some will still argue about weighting the pegs or body steering etc. but all things do is poorly cause you to countersteer.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:45 am

This one is worth watching for a motorcycle explanation along with some mechanical 'proof of concept' experiments.



NB. This is the best quality full version I could find, even if the poster can't spell ;) . They regularly get taken down.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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Horse
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:21 pm

Interesting, good compilation of information. And quite amusing that they declare the three factors which make things happen - then show the diddy scooter thingy that's set up to 'ignore' two of them.

Tony Foale did a lot of experiments, scroll down for pics.
https://motochassis.com/articles/experi ... -geometry/

Many older riders will complete their riding career never having heard of countersteering, most stopping when they want to ;)

If someone is relaxed and 'just lean' then they will accidentally steer quite successfully. Difficulties come when they try to steer consciously.

Re training wheels on kids' bikes, I've heard that described as the worst trick a parent can play. Small balance bikes are a better toy.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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exportmanuk
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby exportmanuk » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:34 pm

Horse wrote:
Many older riders will complete their riding career never having heard of countersteering, most stopping when they want to ;)



The problem with that is when they get into a situation they tend to turn the bars away from the danger which sends the bike towards it.
Andrew Melton
Manchester 500

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Horse
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:45 pm

exportmanuk wrote:
Horse wrote:
Many older riders will complete their riding career never having heard of countersteering, most stopping when they want to ;)



The problem with that is when they get into a situation they tend to turn the bars away from the danger which sends the bike towards it.


Horse wrote:Difficulties come when they try to steer consciously.


;)

Can affect anyone, but worst with people who've had umpteen years of car driving.

On 'back to biking' courses, it was essential to put a lot of time into it.


One other thing for current riders to try:

When coming to a halt, if you want to stop with your right foot down, just as you nip in the clutch and do the final squeeze of brakes, gently and briefly press forward (and release again) on the right bar. And vice versa.

In the video, the bike goes forward in a series of weaves. Many riders will just wait for it to be falling the way they want, and stop then.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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jcochrane
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby jcochrane » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:07 am

It seems to me that it is agreed and shown in the videos, that you need to get the bike to lean in the direction you wish to travel round a bend but the question is how to initiate this lean. I suggest this can be achieved by either counter steering or if your sense of balance is good enough don't steer but change your weight distribution on the bike to get the bike to lean into the bend. My choice is always to use the latter but acknowledge that is not the way for others. I think it is best to use the technique that works best for you.

I do agree with the counter steerers that you do not start the move by turning the handlebar in the direction you want to go as that will cause the bike to lean in the wrong direction. At anything more than slow speed steering is through changing the lean of the bike rather than through the handlebar.

Personally I felt the demonstrations where free movement of the handlebars were restricted were flawed. As was shown, if the handlebar is restricted, it will inevitably result in the bike becoming unstable ending in disaster, whether trying to turn or not and therefore failed to make a convincing case for counter steering as the only way to make a bike turn.

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Horse
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:25 am

jcochrane wrote: this can be achieved by either counter steering or if your sense of balance is good enough don't steer but change your weight distribution on the bike to get the bike to lean into the bend. My choice is always to use the latter


If, when you use 'balance', you have contact with the 'bars, then you may well be accidentally countersteering whether or not you realise it.

One of the demonstrations I've used is to sit someone (chair, not on the bike) facing towards a table.
- Rest your palms very gently on the edge of the table.
- Move your upper body slowly from side to side.
- Be aware of any changes in pressure in your palm.
Typically, as you lean left, pressure will increase in the left palm. On the bike this would result in the bars turning right, so initiating lean to the left.

Also, how would alter your balance?

Another easy experiment:
- Stand upright (again, off the bike)
- Move your upper body 'left', being aware of 'how'' you achieve it.

It's quite likely that to move your upper body 'left' you pushed down with your right foot. [Note that just 'bending at the left knee' wouldn't make any difference on the bike]

So that push down right to move balance left gets awkward.


Ever ridden a BMW C1?

No footrests to weight, no petrol tank to push knees against, rider belted in, so no body movement. That only leaves moving the handlebars.

Image
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby GTR1400MAN » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:46 am

Jcochrane, your description of how you steer a bike is a common one that comes up when countersteering is discussed. As Horse has said whatever you are doing is going through your arms to the handlebars and initiating the turn via countersteering.

Also, in the demo of the motorbike with the modified handlebars there was no restriction on the movement of the steering/original bars. Instead a non moving set of bars were mounted on the frame.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube


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