One for Horse? Countersteering

Topics relating to Advanced Riding on bikes
User avatar
jcochrane
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey-Kent borders and wherever good driving roads are.

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby jcochrane » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:57 am

As I said do what works for you. Whether it’s counter steering or leaning your body if it gets you round safely does it really matter? Why change something that works?

I have used counter steering in the past when cornering speedway style, off road of course. :D

User avatar
jcochrane
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey-Kent borders and wherever good driving roads are.

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby jcochrane » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:13 pm

in your first example, horse, if the table was able to swing freely through a vertical plane as the handlebars of a bike would . then it would move down in the direction of lean with no added pressure felt on the table or hand.
in the second example I would say that if you stand on one leg you can shift your weight to either side developing a lean that if continued far enough would cause you to fall over.

Mike, I would say that it is possible to steer with only one contact point on the bike. However, see last paragraph as I think it might be that it could be very difficult on some of todays's bikes but I do not have the experience to say one way or the other.


I'm sure I can't be the only one, that in my youth, I could ride a cycle or motorbike with only the one contact point, namely my backside on the saddle, and ride a straight line or steer left or right. The secret was to shift the centre of gravity (my body, an initial slight lean at the waist whilst allowing the lower body to follow was usually sufficient) so it fell outside the width of the tyre and the cycle/bike would lean and steer in that direction. On a cautionary note never use counter steering on a cycle unless you want close contact with the tarmac, road rash and lycra torn to shred. Because of the high centre of gravity and tiny 1inch or less wheelbase counter steering would result in a sudden vicious lean of the cycle that could prove very difficult or impossible to control. Watch through footage of a pro tour and you will probably see several cases where a slight twitch of the handlebars deposits a luckless rider to the tarmac and often bringing others down with him.

Following on from the above, on a cycle, I could also ride with only one foot on the pedal, no hands, and the inside of my leg resting against the frame and be able to maintain the balance to ride in a straight line. Obviously had to get the cycle moving first then try. The slightest shift of weight one way or the other would cause the bike to lean. I have seen people able to steer as well but I could only initiate a change of direction but not control it.

A bike can only go straight if upright (unless some other action is also taken) it is the lean that makes the bike turn. Counter steering is one of the ways for a bike to be made to lean but not for a cycle. Try that descending one of the continental Alps into a hairpin at 50mph as you need to turn in and you will discover the a cycle is no substitute for a parachute as you go over the edge and descend to the valley below.

I can understand that with many motorbikes today, where you have a wider tyre than in my youth and often with a lower centre of gravity, it might make it harder to get the centre of gravity to fall outside the width of the tyre and some other technique such as counter steering might make this easier.

User avatar
GTR1400MAN
Posts: 2209
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby GTR1400MAN » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:53 am

Ahhh, the "I can steer my cycle no hands" reply :)

Yes, so can I ... on a lightweight push bike. All you are doing is creating some destabilisation by causing the bars to have a little momentum in one direction or another. Just as you do when you apply light hand pressure to the bars.

Here's an experiment for you. Get hold of an 'illegal' e-bike with a lockable throttle (or a real motorcycle with cruise control) then try the same thing. The extra weight, applied power and natural self centering of the cycle's geometry won't allow enough destabilisation unless you push the bars with your hands.

jcochrane wrote:On a cautionary note never use counter steering on a cycle unless you want close contact with the tarmac


Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 3557
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:15 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:
Here's an experiment for you. Get hold of an 'illegal' e-bike with a lockable throttle (or a real motorcycle with cruise control) then try the same thing. The extra weight, applied power and natural self centering of the cycle's geometry won't allow enough destabilisation unless you push the bars with your hands.



KNMV instructor, using the 'choke' to keep the drive on.

Image


Now get the trainees trying it?

Image

Note, just for extra fun - riding over an obstruction! And is that daylight under the wheel?


Edit:
Looking for the instructor pic, found this:

This was an instructor for the KNMV - the Royal Dutch Motorcycle Club - demonstrating how stable a bike is, leading to a demo of counter-steering (using a luggage strap around one grip - pulled by the rider who has both hands off the bars*) as the only way to accurately steer a bike. [Photo 1995]

* Three instructors demo'ing this, one after the other. The third had tied the strap slightly 'above' centreline of the throttle grip, so when he pulled he also jerked the throttle open (previously they had the choke open to keep the bike rolling under drive rather than slowing).

Whoops.

The bike lurched ahead, now heading left as he'd pulled the right bar back.

. . . Lurched ahead, that is, to a soft earth bank about 12-15 feet high, above which there was a manouvering area where the audience were all stood.

Instructor stood up, looked up the bank, gave it some beans and Moto-X'd the Pan up the bank, parking on the tarmac area, to a round of applause :)

He then took the mic. and said that without his training he would have made all the wrong actions and wouldn't have got out of trouble.

That's be survival reactions, then: narrowed vision, tensing, closed throttle, grabbed brakes etc. - or, instead, overcoming them.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

User avatar
jcochrane
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:53 pm
Location: Surrey-Kent borders and wherever good driving roads are.

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby jcochrane » Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:24 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:Ahhh, the "I can steer my cycle no hands" reply :)

Yes, so can I ... on a lightweight push bike. All you are doing is creating some destabilisation by causing the bars to have a little momentum in one direction or another. Just as you do when you apply light hand pressure to the bars.

Here's an experiment for you. Get hold of an 'illegal' e-bike with a lockable throttle (or a real motorcycle with cruise control) then try the same thing. The extra weight, applied power and natural self centering of the cycle's geometry won't allow enough destabilisation unless you push the bars with your hands.

jcochrane wrote:On a cautionary note never use counter steering on a cycle unless you want close contact with the tarmac



I think the video gives a reasonable visual demonstration but the words slightly misleading. Maybe a fuller verbal description would have been better.
I found the key points to be. Don't turn the wheel. At the same time as pushing forward on the bars to be pushing down on the opposite pedal.

I noticed when demonstrating the bike leaning that as he leaned the bike the the wheel did not perceptibly turn. I agree with pushing down on the outer pedal and applying sufficient force on the handle bars, to keep the wheel neutral and stop it turning in, as it would otherwise as the bike leans. I also agree that a gentle push would be a way of getting the bike to lean. That resistance to the turn in requires to be applied through the turn as well though. It would have been a fuller explanation if it had been mentioned that pushing down on the pedal also causes the bike to lean in the opposite direction. He did say the pushing down on the pedal is done at the same time as pushing the the steering wheel.

For high speed hairpin descents, in particular, I like to load up the outer pedal to just before it would make the bike lean in a similar manner as hinting in a car before a bend.

Some of the bike videos show a positive substantial turn of the steering bars rather than a subtle gentle push on one side of the bar and the bike leaning over at the same time so it is virtually impossible to see the wheel turning. The former description is what think of by the term counter steering but to use the same term for the latter I think is misleading.

So a question back to you two. Do you teach a substantial turn of the bars or a more subtle push of the steering bar. If the former is that because of the weight, low centre of gravity and wider tyres of bikes today?

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 3557
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:11 pm

jcochrane wrote:a positive substantial turn ... rather than a subtle gentle push on one side of the bar and the bike leaning over at the same time ... The former description is what think of by the term counter steering but to use the same term for the latter I think is misleading.

Do you teach a substantial turn of the bars or more subtle push of the steering bar. If the former is that because of the weight, low centre of gravity and wider tyres of bikes today?


It's more important to have consistent action - the press - for all steering at all speeds, to initiate the lean*. Not misleading at all, and the bike certainly doesn't care what it's called :)

Press left, go left
Press more quickly, lean more quickly
Press longer, lean further

* And that's all it does, making the bike lean. Once it's leant enough, release the pressure, the front wheel will turn 'in' to the intended direction, so you continue along the turn.

The type size weight etc is, really, immaterial. Instead, you do what is needed.

Of course, a sports bike is more 'twitchy', quicker steering, easier to change direction- they're designed to be like that. A tourer is usually big, heavier, longer, with front suspension designed to give relatively more stability and 'slower' steering. That said, they will have wider bars, giving more leverage.

Where differences might come in is with the type of turn you need and the body position relative to the bike.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 3557
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: One for Horse? Countersteering

Postby Horse » Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:49 am

jcochrane wrote:
in your first example, horse, if the table was able to swing freely ... pressure felt on the hand.


Just an ordinary table or desk (or, in one demo, a room full of riders where the second and third rows were using the backs of the chairs in front of them), resting on the floor, so unable to move (at least, not from gently resting palms on the edge).

So pressure felt on the palm.

jcochrane wrote:in the second example I would say that if you stand on one leg you can shift your weight to either side developing a lean that if continued far enough would cause you to fall over.


So a different exercise.

However, if you're on one foot and not going to fall over, you will have shifted part of your body to the other side to maintain balance.

I do a bit of painting and drawing. One of the interesting things about 'people' is that, subconsciously, they self-balance. If, when stood, you drop one shoulder, you will probably drop the opposite hip, or move it away. Try it?

Now, we have two things to choose between: is it the hip movement facilitates the shoulder movement,or is a reaction to it? :)

Using the equal and opposite reaction thing, to press forward on one bar is going to require some sort of anchor point to push against, possibly the seat or opposite side footrest. For the latter, Keith Code coined the term 'power steering'.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.


Return to “Advanced Driving - Bikes”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests