Advanced Driving Hub

Horse wrote:And that's one instance where local knowledge can help, starting close up when a nearing a suitable location.

Probably it's reasonable to acknowledge that on most bikes it's very easy to use just a small whiff of extra throttle to start to close the gap while maintaining awareness of not just the car ahead but also (by looking over and around) what's happening ahead. Then, if not on, back off again by just a small closing of throttle to reset.

I had this nice relevant comment on YouTube from a retired Hendon driving instructor I know.

"Very nice indeed, Mike. I like how you followed the van on what I'd refer to as a piece of elastic, instead of on a towrope of fixed length. You let him get away when you reckoned there was no point in being close, only to close back up when circumstances allowed. Many people, in my experience, fail to dial in their following distance according to the vision available."

I did say to him it was helped by knowing the road well

Horse wrote:Blimey, GWS (although it sounds like you are anyway.

S =

----\____

Z =

----|_____

OK, thanks think i've got it. It has been just over a week now but because of heart damage my local hospital want me in for a more thorough scan before deciding on a rehabilitation programme. Frustrating as I'm not even allowed to make a bed but I am allowed to watch TV, listen to music or read a book and take naps during the day. Fortunately my cleaners do a bed change every week including laundering the bed linen.

Horse wrote:Z =

----|_____

I used a three-stage prompt too

-- Gear
| Clear?
__ Go

GTR1400MAN wrote:The other 2 I'd argue that in the real world, rather than the theory of 3 stage vs momentum, that most overtakes are a hybrid of the two.

When helping drivers to overtake, I work very hard on persuading them not to close as they're moving out, and only to make the decision when they're fully out, and both those aspects (fully, deciding) need quite a lot of persuasion as well. So I'd agree, in the real world, but I'd argue that real world examples mostly aren't best practice.

Gareth wrote:When helping drivers to overtake, I work very hard on persuading them not to close as they're moving out, and only to make the decision when they're fully out, and both those aspects (fully, deciding) need quite a lot of persuasion as well. So I'd agree, in the real world, but I'd argue that real world examples mostly aren't best practice.

Yes, when doing a 3 stage overtake where you are close to the target vehicle, not accelerating on your side of the road is very important and I do make that clear to my associates.

Following the discussion I will be paying attention to my 'firing of the gun' to make sure I'm not abusing that bit of overlap between the two types when further back.

My overtakes from today's social ride for you to rip apart ... err, offer constructive critique and advice.

#8 is a complete dog's breakfast!

This is an unlisted video so won't appear on my YouTube channel to my subscribers.

A fascinating look from the motorcyclist viewpoint - as a car driver it is always interesting watching your videos and seeing the vulnerability and how you counter it - though the tractor early on looked a little wide and close to you!

I am not a motorcyclist so can't comment as others can, but I would love it if all motorcyclists rode as smoothly and carefully while still making progress...

Am interested to hear your analysis of overtake 8 and why you feel that it is a complete dog's breakfast - sure it was not as neat as the others, and you had to add power to take the extra car - but you have plenty of power and it didn't appear to mean that you came out of the overtake too fast for the conditions / setting - maybe not text book, but not lethal...

with all of your overtakes - you apply power from behind the car you are about to overtake - I don't know how your ability to see differs from being in a car - perhaps you have a clearer view, but you are not always on the right hand quarter of the car (e.g. when you start to apply power in overtake 2) - does this therefore mean that you are committing to the overtake before you have the full picture of what you are passing / what is in front of it / what is coming? Roadcraft (for cars, not sure if different for bikes) suggests coming out without adding power, giving you a final check of the road ahead with no difficulty in returning if the overtake is not on - and then when you do apply power and go you are already out meaning that the overtake is shorter. Could this have made a difference in overtake no 8 - would you have had a clearer picture of the oncoming traffic / the space between cars 1 & 2?

Liked the overtake no 1 where you stayed out to see if you could take no 2...

As a motorcycle rider you often have a view over the top of a lot of cars so it’s not always necessary to pull out to the right to get a view of some sort.

I'd like to ask about 2 in that while you returned in the distance you could see to be clear - the second longer reaching shadow behind the van - it didn't seem you could see much beyond, so I'd be imagining a fast towards coming out from the other side of the van.

I suppose a general question about accelerating behind a target vehicle rather than offside is what might happen should they do an unexpected emergency stop. I appreciate you have a much better view in being able to see over car but, I wonder, if the point of commitment is sometimes earlier than you intend.

8 looked like a slight misjudgement in 'just enough' which, I agree, is a very nice approach.

I doubt I'd make such a good showing if I recorded my driving overtakes ...

akirk wrote:A fascinating look from the motorcyclist viewpoint - as a car driver it is always interesting watching your videos and seeing the vulnerability and how you counter it - though the tractor early on looked a little wide and close to you!

Nah, THIS is close (I'm the bike being filmed)

akirk wrote:I am not a motorcyclist so can't comment as others can, but I would love it if all motorcyclists rode as smoothly and carefully while still making progress...

Thanks

akirk wrote:Am interested to hear your analysis of overtake 8 and why you feel that it is a complete dog's breakfast - sure it was not as neat as the others, and you had to add power to take the extra car - but you have plenty of power and it didn't appear to mean that you came out of the overtake too fast for the conditions / setting - maybe not text book, but not lethal...

The simple answer is I was greedy! The long answer is that the two cars were travelling a good 10mph below the NSL and I planned to take them both. With hindsight, I should have taken just the first. As often happens as you approach and move out, you wake them up They then start to speed up. Why didn't I abort the 2nd? Well car one had nicely closed the gap down, so a hand full of throttle saved the day. Unsafe? No. Illegal? Yes. I have to say I always have the abundance of dashcams nagging in the back of my head.

akirk wrote:with all of your overtakes - you apply power from behind the car you are about to overtake - I don't know how your ability to see differs from being in a car - perhaps you have a clearer view, but you are not always on the right hand quarter of the car (e.g. when you start to apply power in overtake 2) - does this therefore mean that you are committing to the overtake before you have the full picture of what you are passing / what is in front of it / what is coming? Roadcraft (for cars, not sure if different for bikes) suggests coming out without adding power, giving you a final check of the road ahead with no difficulty in returning if the overtake is not on - and then when you do apply power and go you are already out meaning that the overtake is shorter. Could this have made a difference in overtake no 8 - would you have had a clearer picture of the oncoming traffic / the space between cars 1 & 2?

Similar comments on a previous video were the reason for offering these up for analysis. It is clear from the video that I AM committing and speeding up on my side of the road, though as Jonquirk says below, I do have a view over the car(s). My discussion point always is that most overtakes are actually hybrid versions of 3 stage and momentum. Most of these were 3 stage BUT from further back than prescribed in Roadcraft. I do teach all my associates to get offside before 'firing the gun' and it's something I'll be making a small adjustment to in the future in MY riding, as well as moving out a bit further.

akirk wrote:Liked the overtake no 1 where you stayed out to see if you could take no 2...

You never know