Second thoughts on offsiding

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
crr003
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby crr003 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:12 pm

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:....
What I'm against - and the need for IAM or RoSPA to actually publish any guidance on offsiding supports that view - is that uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary, implementation of offsiding is a high risk activity.

Some of your concerns are covered in this insightful and thought provoking topic (possibly):
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=710

To answer your comment - it's glaringly obvious that given the conditions you made up that offsiding is high risk. Same for overtaking. Or filtering.


Which bit that I made up, please?


'uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary"

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Horse
Posts: 2380
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby Horse » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:34 pm

crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:....
What I'm against - and the need for IAM or RoSPA to actually publish any guidance on offsiding supports that view - is that uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary, implementation of offsiding is a high risk activity

Some of your concerns are covered in this insightful and thought provoking topic (possibly):
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=710

To answer your comment - it's glaringly obvious that given the conditions you made up that offsiding is high risk. Same for overtaking. Or filtering.


Which bit that I made up, please?


'uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary"


Ok, so is this statement incorrect:
uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary, implementation of offsiding is a high risk activity
?
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

crr003
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby crr003 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:45 pm

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:Some of your concerns are covered in this insightful and thought provoking topic (possibly):
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=710

To answer your comment - it's glaringly obvious that given the conditions you made up that offsiding is high risk. Same for overtaking. Or filtering.


Which bit that I made up, please?


'uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary"


Ok, so is this statement incorrect:
uninformed, unthinking, unnecessary, implementation of offsiding is a high risk activity
?

Gordon Bennett! No dear. Didn't I say using those words it was glaringly obvious it was high risk?! But if you use those emotive words for other more accepted driving/riding events there's equal risk.

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Horse
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Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby Horse » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:13 pm

Ok, sorry if I had a hard of thinking moment :) I thought that you meant the 'offsiding for view at three figure speeds' statement made earlier (not by me, I've just asked about it).

So if using emotive terms is bad form, let's refer back to Andy's description:

AndyP wrote:Just LOSE the phrase "off siding" please. [It always sounds, seems and can be outrageous]
open bends.]

Going forwards:-
Advise Straightening or trimming bends and corners. [With all the appropriate safety caveats]
I have never offsided or taught it.

MMM I have done a lot of straightening or trimming though and always taught it.

SO on tests as long as it is safe and we do not come into conflict or there is no following traffic or traffic in front. No problem.


IMHO, that's roughly what I've said here I find acceptable and would do.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

Astraist
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby Astraist » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:53 am

I go further in that I don't do it when there are any other road users in sight, for fear that it will be percieved as reckless driving rather than a deliberate manuever.

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akirk
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Location: Cotswolds

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby akirk » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:20 am

Another way of thinking about this, in my view makes it much simpler... (assuming that there are no prohibitive solid white lines...)

imagine the road without any line markings down the centre - there are many such roads around here...
now - where do you position for the optimal balance of safety / view
put the white lines back in - why is it any different?

In the UK, other than markings which prohibit moving across, there is nothing intrinsically illegal about driving on either side of the road - so use as much as is safe / helpful... and factor in:
- expectations of other drivers
- how the view changes
- speed
- handling
- legal (e.g. solid white lines)
- etc...

I don't see any reason why you would remain on the left, or move to the right other than because it is the logical place when you balance the above...
There seems to be a trend now towards "safety is being a sheep" i.e. only doing what the lowest level driver would do / expect...
Surely a big part of our driving is that it is about intelligence - taking the right decision for the setting on that day - which may be different in another setting / on another day...

Alasdair

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Horse
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Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby Horse » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:34 am

Yes, fully agree. There's a piece of road I use most days:
https://goo.gl/maps/krX4QRqDPsA2
Parking area on left delineated by paint. Even when empty, drivers seem determined (as the one ahead in the photo) to not use the good surface, instead they head out right over the decaying join and closer to oncoming traffic.

akirk wrote: Surely a big part of our driving is that it is about intelligence - taking the right decision for the setting on that day - which may be different in another setting / on another day...

. . . and factor in:
- expectations of other drivers
- how the view changes
- speed
- handling
- legal (e.g. solid white lines)
- etc...


I've reversed the order of your text to emphasise that it's the decision-making that's key.

Also, I think that if anyone is intending to use the full width (on a two lane width road) then they need to be honest about the risks and benefits. If they're not, then they need to rethink.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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akirk
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:58 pm
Location: Cotswolds

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby akirk » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:55 am

Horse wrote:Yes, fully agree. There's a piece of road I use most days:
https://goo.gl/maps/krX4QRqDPsA2
Parking area on left delineated by paint. Even when empty, drivers seem determined (as the one ahead in the photo) to not use the good surface, instead they head out right over the decaying join and closer to oncoming traffic.

akirk wrote: Surely a big part of our driving is that it is about intelligence - taking the right decision for the setting on that day - which may be different in another setting / on another day...

. . . and factor in:
- expectations of other drivers
- how the view changes
- speed
- handling
- legal (e.g. solid white lines)
- etc...


I've reversed the order of your text to emphasise that it's the decision-making that's key.

Also, I think that if anyone is intending to use the full width (on a two lane width road) then they need to be honest about the risks and benefits. If they're not, then they need to rethink.


no problem with the order of the text being changed for emphasis :)

to use the full width without consideration of risks / benefits is to be a non-thinking driver, which hopefully we would not be if we are interested in improving our driving... but that is no different to choosing speed around a corner / how far to sit behind another car / all the other decisions we make each day - I would never suggest that it is used without thought - but if it is safer / better to be in a particular spot, then why wouldn't you - and my point was that we would naturally do that on a road without markings (as would many if not most drivers), so the issue is not where we are on the road, but the psychology of the white lines - and as much of the population doesn't understand them, it is hardly surprising that a lack of intelligence is used in road positioning - most drivers are analagous to Scalextric - me on my track, you on yours...

Alasdair

sussex2
Posts: 590
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:43 am

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby sussex2 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:04 am

akirk wrote:Another way of thinking about this, in my view makes it much simpler... (assuming that there are no prohibitive solid white lines...)

imagine the road without any line markings down the centre - there are many such roads around here...
now - where do you position for the optimal balance of safety / view
put the white lines back in - why is it any different?

In the UK, other than markings which prohibit moving across, there is nothing intrinsically illegal about driving on either side of the road - so use as much as is safe / helpful... and factor in:
- expectations of other drivers
- how the view changes
- speed
- handling
- legal (e.g. solid white lines)
- etc...

I don't see any reason why you would remain on the left, or move to the right other than because it is the logical place when you balance the above...
There seems to be a trend now towards "safety is being a sheep" i.e. only doing what the lowest level driver would do / expect...
Surely a big part of our driving is that it is about intelligence - taking the right decision for the setting on that day - which may be different in another setting / on another day...

Alasdair



Exactly!

fungus
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:26 pm
Location: Dorset

Re: Second thoughts on offsiding

Postby fungus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:53 pm

Horse wrote:
Gareth wrote:B660 above Kimbolton? Parts of the A4 between Hungerford and Newbury?


I did wonder about A338 Wantage - Hungerford e.g. (plucked almost at random, without a 'drive' through) https://goo.gl/maps/QJAWwGvj4K82 but even that location wouldn't seem to provide substantial additional view.


Too many 50mph sections on the A338, but it's usually quieter than the A34.

I offside to maintain veiw and speed but so many roadside verges are so overgrown that it's often not possible.

Nigel.


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