Use of Indicator for Overtaking

[Gareth]

From this, I glean he does not believe there is any benefit of maintaining an activated indicator for the base of the ‘triangle’ manoeuvre when moving to, and whilst on the offside pausing to look down the ‘hypotenuse’.

If other drivers or riders can't see your vehicle in the offside position, should they be driving or riding, and how much difference is an indicator going to make?

If you kept the indicator on, what then? You're out, not catching the victim, and having a bloody good look. You spot something that gives that feeling of unease ... you cancel the out indicator and start the in indicator? Takes too long. And if you move in with the out indicator still on, then if the following driver has closed up and overlapped, you'll have provided a ready excuse for them to tell the authorities and/or the insurers.

In driving you need to try to think through the consequences of various possible scenarios. If like me you're rubbish at doing that, you need to think them through in advance, such as while reading a book.

[Horse]

These days I'm wondering where you get long enough straights and little enough traffic to have 4 seconds to indicate before you move offside to look to see if it might be on...

Another advanced driving coach pointed out to me that an overtake only takes 4-5 seconds. If you've got that long to be thinking about a signal, why haven't you just got it done?

Perhaps where there's double white lines but you will overtake when it ends?

[akirk]

I was originally taught (by my standard driving instructor who was very good) - think of the indicator as conversation - who are you telling and what are you telling them - do you need to tell them once, or many times? Also, remember that there are many ways in conversation of saying the same thing - road positioning being a good example...

If you indicate, are you overtaking or about to turn into a layby / junction / drive / etc. (ignoring the preference to not overtake when there are lots of hazards around!) - road positioning - where your car is left-right in the road and near / far from the car in front may give a more accurate message...

Like so much of driving - we look for 'rules' because for a lot of people they need that structure and better to have the same thing done regularly which is right in 90% of situations, than expect them to think through the detail! In reality though, driving is never that simple - no two overtakes are identical / no two journeys on the same road are the same - so rather than thinking of it as here is a formulaic approach that makes me an advanced driver - think instead about the common analogy of tools in a toolbox - approach the situation with several options and then choose how to deploy those options to reduce impact on others / stay safe.

If you think about it we already have a number of ways in which vehicles communicate (horn / indicators / road positioning / sirens / blue lights / headlights / arm signals (polite HC approved ones!) / etc.) while we don't get to use them all - we do get to choose how to communicate...

worth also remembering HC 103 - signals don't give you priority...

[Edmund Kean]

akirk - excellent post! Same hymn sheet...

When I coach (bikes), I refer to the indicator as a communicator - get the language correct and it will convey more than if used in a perfunctory manner.

[Horse]

I refer to ...

So, after comments here and your previous training and personal thoughts ....

What are your views now?

[Edmund Kean]

When I read this, I thought to advocate procedurally cancelling the indicator at the aforementioned moment, is not encouraging the driver to use the indicator with intelligence and logic in any situation.

Horse, I discovered the JL book purely by chance but before purchasing it, I searched the author’s name. The search brought me here to ADHub where I found reverence towards the man within topics on the forum and so I purchased the book. ADHub, was previously unknown to me but seemed to have decent content from the contributors; I registered soon afterwards.

For a man who clearly has thought a great deal about driving, which, by the way, means he possesses a good deal of logic, I couldn't reconcile with his regime. And since I had discovered ADHub, I sought to discover the thoughts of the registered. And so to answer your question, my view remains unchanged

Thanks to the contributors.

[Horse]

It's interesting of some stuff just doesn't translate.

Paul Ripley used to write really good articles for the Telegraph. Superintendent Peter Amey was a driving force (pun intended) behind the 1995 rewrite of Roadcraft.

Together, they wrote a book. I found it underwhelming at best.


Please stick around, if only to ask challenging questions

[Gareth]

I thought to advocate procedurally cancelling the indicator at the aforementioned moment, is not encouraging the driver to use the indicator with intelligence and logic in any situation.

I struggle with 'not encouraging the driver to use the indicator with intelligence and logic in any situation' since, as I understood from your description of what is suggested in the book, this is purely in the context of a single carriage-way overtake.

For a man who clearly has thought a great deal about driving, which, by the way, means he possesses a good deal of logic, I couldn't reconcile with his regime.

If you were describing an approach to overtaking, what would be your starting point? By which I mean, how differently would you describe it?

Going further, if as you seem to prefer, you would suggest keeping the indicator on when you move out, what sequence of steps would you then recommend if the driver discovers the overtake isn't on?

FWIW in preparing for an overtake when a mirror check showed a quickly catching vehicle, typically a motorbike, I've used the indicator pretty much as described to let the other person know what I'm intending. If they've chosen to ignore it, I've bidden my time but, if there is a sign they're willing to wait for me to get on with it, then I've felt free to cancel the indicator and move out so that I can see if it's safe to continue. It might not necessarily be four seconds, because it's a reaction that's sought.

The last time was on the road from Alston to Middleton, and the only reason the motorcyclist caught up was because there were two cyclists approaching a blind brow, and I was patiently waiting for the view to develop to be able to pass them safely.

[Horse]

... a quickly catching vehicle ... to let the other person know what I'm intending. If they've chosen to ignore it, I've bidden my time but, if there is a sign they're willing to wait for me to get on with it, then I've felt free to cancel the indicator and move out so that I can see if it's safe to continue

Could you clarify that, please.

It reads as
1. [Signal] to let the other person know what I'm intending
2. ... cancel the indicator
3. ... move out

If someone following you is looking to overtake cancelling your signal might appear as you having changed your mind - so potentially reassuring them that you would stay put, and encouraging them to overtake - possibly as you want to go for a look.

the only reason the motorcyclist caught up

Only? Surely you're not claiming that you can out-run any bike and rider?

[Gareth]

Could you clarify that, please.

Sure. I remember two cyclists, one further out than the other, with not enough view to safely pass as they climbed towards the crest on a left bend. As we approached the crest, before the view developed but where it would soon, I started indicating. As the view started to develop, and seeing the motorcyclist hadn't moved up, I moved closer to the centre of the road. With the view enough developed I cancelled the indicator and moved across the centre, probably both at the same time.

the only reason the motorcyclist caught up

Only? Surely you're not claiming that you can out-run any bike and rider?

Did I say anything about any? I can't say about the performance of that particular bike, nor the skills of that particular rider, but I can say what happened.

I'd noticed the rider some distance back, probably shortly after leaving Alston. It didn't seem to be catching up until I had to tuck in behind the cyclists, then a short while later it was behind.

After passing the cyclists and continuing my rather fun old Octavia diesel estate drive, I was expecting the bike to be soon passing. Apart from being very brisk, I wasn't going out of my way to make it difficult. However the rider would lose ground in the corners and catch up between, was moving out from time to time but didn't commit to a pass.

At one point the bike was offside and almost in my blind spot, I felt having a rider there would mean I wouldn't be free to take the line I wanted into the upcoming bend so, to force the issue, I moved left and braked lightly, and the rider passed.

I let a gap build up before I continued as I'd been driving before, and after a short time caught the rider. I kept on having to lift off, where otherwise I wouldn't, to avoid getting too close. It was clear the rider wasn't getting away and, after a while, it seemed to me the rider was taking more and more risks in bends.

Before the right bend down to Langdon Beck I'd decided it was getting too risky and backed off completely. As I came out of the bend, I'm not exactly sure what had happened, but I saw the rider braking firmly in the slightly gravelly rough surface of ground in front of the hotel, with clouds of dust kicked up.

I'd like to think the rider had aborted in a controlled fashion but I worried that, with the increased speed for the right downhill bend, they'd been too quick to get around the tighter left.

What I can also say, from experience, is that some riders seem to believe they can outrun anything on twisty roads, even when they don't have the skills to back that up. For bends and, especially if the surface is poor, I feel four tyres can be a significant advantage over two.