Off-siding

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
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jcochrane
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Re: Off-siding

Postby jcochrane » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:19 pm

In the IAM seminar a few days ago this was clarified. They did not consider straight lining through an S bend when both sides can be seen to be clear as a miss use of offsiding, and would be acceptable. `To offside on the approach to a left hand bend where it is not fully open, ie full view on the nearside, on the approach is not acceptable.

In the example you use initially you would be approaching a gradual blind left bend and as such should not offside to gain a view.ie of the dead ground on the nearside.

I draw that conclusion on the IAM view. Also by off siding to open the view. It might be that view is lost to the following right hand bend. On balance probably better to stay nearside and with the early opening of the bend more acceleration can be used much earlier towards and through the right hand bend.as there would be good early view through it. In fact at around the apex of the left hand bend you could straight line through the right hand bend using full width of the road.I think this gives better overall pace and balance whilst being safer.

This would be for a car, bikes could be different.

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Horse
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:43 pm

jcochrane wrote:This would be for a car, bikes could be different.


Not really. Riders have an advantage on the approach to 'rights' of being able to move closer to the NS of the road. Also the height difference might be advantageous.

Otherwise, everything else applies. You either have a view, or you don't.

Oh - riders often have the advantage of being supremely optimistic ;)
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Gareth
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Gareth » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:12 am

jcochrane wrote:It might be that view is lost to the following right hand bend.

The Streetview camera is probably a lot higher than eye level but, to me, it appears that on approach the driver would have a very good view all the way along the right side of the road to the crest.

Here are a couple where, if it's clear, I move across to take a nicer line, and one where I would if it wasn't for the paint:Of course each situation is somewhat different but it isn't always solely about the view, cornering forces, smoothness and progression might also be factors that we consider when we do what we do.

I remember long ago when I was preparing for the RoADAR test, the police officer explaining the course said that through his taxes he'd (we'd) paid for all of the road so, providing it was safe and legal, and if he thought there was a benefit to him, he was jolly well going to use it.
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Gareth
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Gareth » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:28 am

jcochrane wrote:To offside on the approach to a left hand bend where it is not fully open, ie full view on the nearside, on the approach is not acceptable.

The devil is always in the detail; completely blind is one thing, but some bends appear blind while approaching on the nearside while retaining a much longer view if approaching on the offside. I've heard this referred to as the extended safety line although maybe I imagined it. Possible examples:
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Another Bill
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Another Bill » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:12 am

Thanks to all for advice given on this thread. I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or unappreciative, it's not my intention.

I've been trying to remind myself what Roadcraft has to say on the matter. I have 2013 and 2020 editions in front of me. Both seem to broadly suggest that there may sometimes be a benefit, of an earlier view, by positioning towards the centre of the road approaching a left hand bend (2013 p181 and 2020 p194 ). They categorically do not suggest crossing the centre line, but neither do they explressly forbid it. Feel free to tell me if I have missed or misinterpreted anything, I'm sure other folks here will be infinitely more familiar than I am with these books.

However, I also have a copy of Roadcraft 1960 edition that I rescued from a house clearance. Curiously, it goes further than the modern editions...

From 1960 p38, referring to same term, an "earlier view" (with my highlighting)....

"...and into left-hand bends by keeping slightly over to the right when approaching the bend. Lining up in this way must only be resorted to when it is perfectly safe to do so, and in any case there must be no encroachment on to the offside of the road."

So apparently more explicit in 1960, despite being a much smaller book (77 pages!). Make of that what you will.

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exportmanuk
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Re: Off-siding

Postby exportmanuk » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:19 am

The last time we discussed this with the ASDM for left hand bends he suggested if you were out there ( eg completed an overtake) and had the view already you could if it was safe stay there, but would be frowned upon if on the approach you moved out to "Gain a view" Also added if it was a tight left hand bend with little or no view you would be betters slowing down and tucked in to the left. This was a discussion around bikes.

The danger with this is the interpretation by the driver/rider of what is safe. Something we have discuss at length with Bikesafe officers. What they, and some very experienced riders would consider safe may be a lot different than an inexperienced rider. They may be off side because someone has told them they can when we would not even consider it an option.
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Strangely Brown
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:07 pm

The examiner at my last RoSPA test asked RoSPA for a definitive answer having discussed the matter during the test.

They said:
You may adopt or hold an offside position to maintain an existing view for as long as it is safe to do so. You may not adopt an offside position in order to seek a view that you do not already have.

That sounds simple enough to me.

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Re: Off-siding

Postby Gareth » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:10 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:You may adopt or hold an offside position to maintain an existing view for as long as it is safe to do so. You may not adopt an offside position in order to seek a view that you do not already have.
At the risk of being needlessly argumentative, I am firmly of the opinion that the potential hazard in their minds is an on-coming road user, not a field entrance.
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Horse
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Re: Off-siding

Postby Horse » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:03 pm

Gareth wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:You may adopt or hold an offside position to maintain an existing view for as long as it is safe to do so. You may not adopt an offside position in order to seek a view that you do not already have.
At the risk of being needlessly argumentative, I am firmly of the opinion that the potential hazard in their minds is an on-coming road user, not a field entrance.


Seen this?


Last edited by Horse on Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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waremark
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Re: Off-siding

Postby waremark » Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:10 pm

"From 1960 p38, referring to same term, an "earlier view" (with my highlighting)....

"...and into left-hand bends by keeping slightly over to the right when approaching the bend. Lining up in this way must only be resorted to when it is perfectly safe to do so, and in any case there must be no encroachment on to the offside of the road."

I didn't expect that - I thought they would have been more rather than less inclined to borrow the other side of the road back in the day. Interestingly also in that extract it does not make any reference to a centre line. In more recent IAM pronouncements it is explicitly crossing a centre line for extra vision which is disapproved of whereas using more than half the road on a road with no centre line was not banned. At the time I thought that was crazy but someone here suggested that roads with no centre line being narrower opposite direction traffic would be more ready for vehicles towards them in the centre of the road.


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