3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

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jcochrane
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3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby jcochrane » Fri May 07, 2021 3:30 pm

The 3 stage overtake is often quoted and supported by the Police it being contained in Roadcraft. Should this advice be questioned? The 3 stage system says to close from a following position, of 2 seconds, to a position closer than 2 seconds into the overtaking position and then move out and finally overtake

For good reason the advice is to allow at a 2 second gap for safety so why compromise this during civilian driving? To move closer into a position of high risk (all be it briefly) may be argued as justified in police operational driving but what is the argument for taking the extra risk if not on a "shout" as is the case for civilians?

Is it not safer to move out from the 2 second following position and then to overtake (2 stages)? Occasionally a marginal overtake might be missed but so what? Should safety not trump progress for civilian driving?

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jont-
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby jont- » Fri May 07, 2021 3:56 pm

jcochrane wrote: Should safety not trump progress for civilian driving?

Is overtaking ever safer than not overtaking? Is going faster ever safer than going slower? Is driving for a jolly safer than staying at home?

Be careful where that line of thought takes you....

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Horse
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby Horse » Fri May 07, 2021 4:25 pm

IIRC a police officer (probably on the old forum) did a write up of his driving course and the 'one second' following position had been dropped.

And, FWIW, the diagrams in Rc were horribly not to scale if they were supposed to be two and one second gaps.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

Gareth
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby Gareth » Fri May 07, 2021 4:50 pm

jcochrane wrote:The 3 stage system says to close from a following position, of 2 seconds, to a position closer than 2 seconds into the overtaking position and then move out and finally overtake

I think the close-follow stage is (or should be) transitory in moving to the offside. I can see how that would work when the driver has the protection of sirens and flashing lights.

For non-emergency driving, perhaps a constant two-second gap is closer than it needs to be, but closing up to two seconds as a transitory stage in moving offside doesn't seem an unrealistically optimistic approach, while still following the pattern.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Horse
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby Horse » Fri May 07, 2021 6:11 pm

jont- wrote:
jcochrane wrote: Should safety not trump progress for civilian driving?

Is overtaking ever safer than not overtaking? Is going faster ever safer than going slower? Is driving for a jolly safer than staying at home?


IIRC many people have their heart attack around 6am. Whether they would have been safer tucked up in bed or out for a drive while the roads are quiet, who knows? I heard a podcast by a surgeon talking about how 'exercise' injuries increased during lockdown. Watch the TV air ambo obdocs, recreational cyclists, motorcyclists, horse riders, rock climbers. Etc etc etc.

For motorcyclists, overtaking is one of the three big gotchas and, since (if you exclude filtering as a sub-set) it typically takes place at higher speeds, outcomes from crashes are often poor.

But. What are the priorities while out 'advanced' driving? Or, perhaps, priority singular? What's the first of the 4 (or 5) Ss? Is it 'safe', or 'speed'

If the word 'safe' is going to be used then, of course, nothing is ever truly safe.

So let's use a different word: risk.

Does any overtake increase your risk? Probably.

Is that increase acceptable and how do you 'measure' or justify it?
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

janetwise-griggs
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby janetwise-griggs » Fri May 07, 2021 7:06 pm

Agree with Horse, it's all about risk management

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri May 07, 2021 7:14 pm

While I cover 3 stage and 1 stage (momentum or overtaking in the absence of all other hazards) as they are part of Roadcraft/The IAM syllabus, I have regularly proposed that most overtakes are a hybrid of the two. Here's one (bikes) I prepared earlier. YouTube Link

The overtaking position is probably the most risky time when riding/driving and therefore you shouldn't be there for long. Too many move up and then hang there waiting for an opportunity to appear and harassing the driver in front. If it's not on, drop back and start over.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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Horse
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby Horse » Fri May 07, 2021 7:56 pm

janetwise-griggs wrote:Agree with Horse, it's all about risk management


With benefit justifying the increased risk. What are the benefits from overtaking?
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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jont-
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby jont- » Sat May 08, 2021 7:59 am

Horse wrote:
janetwise-griggs wrote:Agree with Horse, it's all about risk management


With benefit justifying the increased risk. What are the benefits from overtaking?

You don't die of boredom before you reach the age of the coffin dodger you're stuck behind? :gear:

Triquet
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Re: 3 Stage or 2 Stage Overtake?

Postby Triquet » Sat May 08, 2021 8:35 am

I'm not sure that there is a single simple answer to this. Here in 40 mph land (Occupied North Berkshire) you never know quite what the reaction of the overtakee is going to be (even if they have actually noticed you). Sometimes it is better to take time out and hang well back until there is a really good opportunity then ease over, take a final check and go. It is quite possible that the overtakee will suddenly take note and accelerate, so it is essential to get a good speed differential as quickly as possible. The old Saab Aero is quite good at mid-range acceleration but it realy only likes it in a straight line.


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