Advanced Driving Hub

xpc316e wrote: The right way is the right way because it works in any and every vehicle. Any system, or method of vehicle control, that works for some vehicles and not others is not much of a system.

but... if modern drivers only drive that subset of cars for which the reduced system works - why do they need any more skills - are there not plenty of other skills they would be better off learning - more fundamental to safe driving?

how many people on here own any cars without synchromesh? I do, but only 1 out of 4 cars - two of which are 71 classics - one with synchro, one without... and we are keen drivers - how many less of the population need that skill?

Alasdair

xpc316e wrote:... Lots of car drivers get away with their bad habits only because the vehicle itself is inherently stable and not that heavy.

The next phase of my argument is that if one can separate braking and changing gear then one can jump into a vehicle with a crash gearbox and drive the thing. If you cannot get rid of a BGOL, then trying to drive such a vehicle is going to result in a great deal of embarrassment. The right way is the right way because it works in any and every vehicle. Any system, or method of vehicle control, that works for some vehicles and not others is not much of a system.

As an IAM observer and RoSPA Tutor, I cannot for one moment even begin to imagine the reaction that I would get from an IAM or RoSPA associate if I were to say... "you need to get this brake/gear separation sorted. I know you drive a superb modern car with synchromesh on all 6 gears, but, if you can master the art of brake gear separation you'll then be able to jump into a vehicle with a crash gearbox and drive the thing. Let me explain. Brake/Gear separation is the right way because the right way is the right way because it works in any and every vehicle." Having just typed these words, I can now see, in my mind's eye, the look on the face of my associate. It can only be described as incredulous.

The real issue here is one of relevance. The explanation that you give in support of your argument is wholly irrelevant to the vast majority of drivers today. There are many more relevant arguments in support of brake/gear separation; arguments that drivers of modern cars are able to relate to.

To me, BG separation is about smoothness. I can change gear while braking, but the engine / road speed mismatch gives me a lurch I dislike. So I choose to not BGOL. And if an associate wants me to mentor them into smoothness, then separation is a skill they need to know, IMO.

dvenman wrote:To me, BG separation is about smoothness. I can change gear while braking, but the engine / road speed mismatch gives me a lurch I dislike. So I choose to not BGOL. And if an associate wants me to mentor them into smoothness, then separation is a skill they need to know, IMO.

So if it can be done without a 'lurch', you'd be content?

I thought the ability to adapt to any vehicle, being able to make the most of its attributes, was an admirable skill! No need to drive all vehicles the same way.

akirk wrote:

xpc316e wrote: The right way is the right way because it works in any and every vehicle. Any system, or method of vehicle control, that works for some vehicles and not others is not much of a system.

but... if modern drivers only drive that subset of cars for which the reduced system works - why do they need any more skills - are there not plenty of other skills they would be better off learning - more fundamental to safe driving?

how many people on here own any cars without synchromesh? I do, but only 1 out of 4 cars - two of which are 71 classics - one with synchro, one without... and we are keen drivers - how many less of the population need that skill?

Alasdair

Back in '71 when I took driving lessons I was taught to change gear by numbers, through rather than across the box, as it 'helped the brakes'.
The brakes on a Morris Minor needed all the help they could get but I can't imagine 1.0 litres worth of coffee cup cylinders were going to help that much.
It was and perhaps still is a method that a lot of people are/were taught to drive with. It wasn't, for me, until a few years later when my destructive (the instructors words) lack of system was sorted out.
There simply weren't cars back then with the stonking low down torque of a turbo diesel, and not many with 160 prancing nags under the bonnet either.
As you say things change and, with safety being paramount, techniques need to change as well.

Filly was 'taught' to drive (post-test) using the gears to help slow her Polo as it's brakes were, allegedly, 'poor'.

We had a big enough 'discussion' soon after we met about her little Vauxhall and acceleration ("My car doesn't do 40 in third!" "Oh yes it does - look!") that I've not persevered with trying to effect change . . .

ahh yes, slowing down with the engine / gears and slowing down only the rear - or using those brake things on all 4 wheels
to be fair - in the Z3, in the wet, the brakes can get twitchy - engine braking can be a useful additional skill
but more importantly - z3 with engine braking gets lots of pop crackle and overrun - sounds fantastic

Alasdair

My MX5 needs to be revved in order to get performance, hence it doesn't pull well at low revs. I like it that way inasmuch as I like a lazy powerful turbo diesel - same goose different sauces/uses.
I'll often change to a lower gear on approach to a hazard to maintain revability (my own word) and it doesn't mean that is the gear I'll use for the hazard.
The thing lacks a decent engine noise but it is nice, very nice, to have a red line at 7k and know you can't break the thing.

Horse wrote:

dvenman wrote:To me, BG separation is about smoothness. I can change gear while braking, but the engine / road speed mismatch gives me a lurch I dislike. So I choose to not BGOL. And if an associate wants me to mentor them into smoothness, then separation is a skill they need to know, IMO.

So if it can be done without a 'lurch', you'd be content?

Yes - but my driving style means that H&T in the soft top (petrol) and BG separation on the Golf (diesel) is the only way so far I've found to do it.

I *very* occasionally don't use the gas when changing down, but it's when I've adopted a more relaxed style for the day or the moment.