Mobile phones

[martine]

The more I think about it, the less acceptable it seems (see above).
As I see it the problem in this case with using any sort of risk assessment methodology (like the two studies mentioned, and in your link) is that you start with the assumption that one single factor (mobile phone operation) definitely explains all of the risk increase. Imagine, for example that the investigators had decided that the significant factor was the wearing of red socks. They could identify those people who were wearing red socks when involved in accidents and then collect various sets of data about when these people were and were not wearing red socks. They would end up with an impressive evaluation of the risk of wearing red socks, but I don't think it would prove that red socks were a genuine hazard.

Not sure who your post is aimed at.

Point is, I like many others I have spoken with, have found when driving and using a hands-free phone, we can't remember that part of the journey and are driving on 'autopilot' - have you experienced that? Would you agree it seems likely we have less awareness and extended reaction times?

Seems to me my empirical evidence fits with the simulator studies quite nicely.

I have not seen any research to say hands-free doesn't have a detrimental effect but there are loads of studies showing it does.

[Speary]

Hi Martin. I totally agree with your comment above

[akirk]

The more I think about it, the less acceptable it seems (see above).
As I see it the problem in this case with using any sort of risk assessment methodology (like the two studies mentioned, and in your link) is that you start with the assumption that one single factor (mobile phone operation) definitely explains all of the risk increase. Imagine, for example that the investigators had decided that the significant factor was the wearing of red socks. They could identify those people who were wearing red socks when involved in accidents and then collect various sets of data about when these people were and were not wearing red socks. They would end up with an impressive evaluation of the risk of wearing red socks, but I don't think it would prove that red socks were a genuine hazard.

Not sure who your post is aimed at.

Point is, I like many others I have spoken with, have found when driving and using a hands-free phone, we can't remember that part of the journey and are driving on 'autopilot' - have you experienced that? Would you agree it seems likely we have less awareness and extended reaction times?

Seems to me my empirical evidence fits with the simulator studies quite nicely.

I have not seen any research to say hands-free doesn't have a detrimental effect but there are loads of studies showing it does.

That is valid, but isn't part of the question whether it matters...
I think in this thread we have all accepted that it degrades driving as would many other activities which are legal and carry no stigma... therefore the question is whether you can mitigate that degradation/ whether you can have enough contingency to allow for reduced ability...

e.g. yesterday having not had a call while driving for many months, I was phoned, I was approaching a lorry and two cars with an opportunity to overtake them as we came out of a sequence of bends onto a long straight, thinking of this conversation I backed off focused on the road, answered the call, spoke for about a second, hung up carried on driving...

I can remember that stretch of road... less able during the call? possibly so, dangerous? absolutely not! I was happy with my choice, I managed the situation, no fluffy animals were killed as a result

As advanced drivers a big part of what that means is being deliberate in how we drive, calculating risk and making decisions to stay low risk and safe...

I am very happy that there are ways to use a phone handsfree and safely, whether that means that all handsfree calls are managed safely is a separate issue, but no different to whether all drives are managed safely, and the inability of some is not a reason to legislate against all

Alasdair

[sussex2]

'is being deliberate in how we drive'

Quoting the post above that phrase says it al IMO.

[superplum]

....As advanced drivers a big part of what that means is being deliberate in how we drive, calculating risk and making decisions to stay low risk and safe...
Alasdair

...and staying within the law?

[martine]

...e.g. yesterday having not had a call while driving for many months, I was phoned, I was approaching a lorry and two cars with an opportunity to overtake them as we came out of a sequence of bends onto a long straight, thinking of this conversation I backed off focused on the road, answered the call, spoke for about a second, hung up carried on driving...

I can remember that stretch of road... less able during the call? possibly so, dangerous? absolutely not! I was happy with my choice, I managed the situation, no fluffy animals were killed as a result

Agreed but a 1 second call is hardly typical. Yes, mobile phone attention degradation is sliding scale from hardly any effect to very serious but I would argue for most people, in most situations and typical use, mobile phones have a serious detrimental effect and on that basis I would support a total ban on use by the driver.

[Matt1962]

The more I think about it, the less acceptable it seems (see above).
As I see it the problem in this case with using any sort of risk assessment methodology (like the two studies mentioned, and in your link) is that you start with the assumption that one single factor (mobile phone operation) definitely explains all of the risk increase. Imagine, for example that the investigators had decided that the significant factor was the wearing of red socks. They could identify those people who were wearing red socks when involved in accidents and then collect various sets of data about when these people were and were not wearing red socks. They would end up with an impressive evaluation of the risk of wearing red socks, but I don't think it would prove that red socks were a genuine hazard.

Not sure who your post is aimed at.

Point is, I like many others I have spoken with, have found when driving and using a hands-free phone, we can't remember that part of the journey and are driving on 'autopilot' - have you experienced that? Would you agree it seems likely we have less awareness and extended reaction times?

Seems to me my empirical evidence fits with the simulator studies quite nicely.

I have not seen any research to say hands-free doesn't have a detrimental effect but there are loads of studies showing it does.

Sorry - not very obvious. It was a response to userLeft1's post with the statistical methodology link.

My point, and I think it is the one that really divides the two 'factions' here, is not that hands-free is absolutely neutral with regard to driving safety, but that it is possible to recognise and minimise the hazards involved and thus maintain safety. Furthermore, mobile phone use in general and hands free in particular just might be overrated in it's importance with regard to the overall picture of driving hazards - this is why I am taking issue with some of the studies quoted.

I think you are highly unlikely to see any research to say hands-free doesn't have a detrimental effect, but you could reverse some of the studies quoted previously by choosing drivers who had not been using phones at the time of their accident and using their records of previous hands-free use to calculate the (spurious but statistically valid) additional risk involved in NOT using a phone....

The autopilot one is interesting. I am quite prone to this, particularly when driving long distances in light traffic (French Autoroutes for example). I have never really decided if it is genuinely unsafe, or if it is more related to memory than the instant capacity to react? I don't think my pattern of hands-free use is very relevant to this though as an incoming call immediately presents me with a lot of driving decisions to make - do I: cancel the call, look for a place to park, increase following distance, reduce speed etc? I can't imagine a situation where I would drive for any distance and maintain a hands-free conversation.

[Strangely Brown]

... mobile phone attention degradation is sliding scale from hardly any effect to very serious but I would argue for most people, in most situations and typical use, mobile phones have a serious detrimental effect and on that basis I would support a total ban on use by the driver.

You are absolutely correct and I would probably support treating hands-free the same as hand-held too. The only problem is that it would get even less compliance than hand-held has now so it would be pointless.

Have you considered why hands-free is not included in the legislation? Could it, perhaps, be [in no small part] because it is impossible to police?

[jont-]

... mobile phone attention degradation is sliding scale from hardly any effect to very serious but I would argue for most people, in most situations and typical use, mobile phones have a serious detrimental effect and on that basis I would support a total ban on use by the driver.

You are absolutely correct and I would probably support treating hands-free the same as hand-held too. The only problem is that it would get even less compliance than hand-held has now so it would be pointless.

Have you considered why hands-free is not included in the legislation? Could it, perhaps, be [in no small part] because it is impossible to police?

I increasingly wonder why we bother with any legislation related to road safety. We're back to the time of year which demonstrates a significant fraction of cars have deficient lighting, (and even the ones that work are often badly adjusted), some will be on illegal tyres, and that's before we get to the drivers. Even when they're caught repeatedly, we don't take their licenses away. And if we /eventually/ do, they start victim blaming
http://road.cc/content/news/212380-text ... l-sentence

[akirk]

... mobile phone attention degradation is sliding scale from hardly any effect to very serious but I would argue for most people, in most situations and typical use, mobile phones have a serious detrimental effect and on that basis I would support a total ban on use by the driver.

You are absolutely correct and I would probably support treating hands-free the same as hand-held too. The only problem is that it would get even less compliance than hand-held has now so it would be pointless.

Have you considered why hands-free is not included in the legislation? Could it, perhaps, be [in no small part] because it is impossible to police?

exactly - also, if something can be done legally as well as illegally - why do you ban it all?
should you ban alcohol because despite the laws on drink driving some still do it?
should you equally ban all drugs (including life-saving ones?)
of course not...
so our legislative approach is not to ban everything, but to ban what is wrong...
hand-held mobile phone call brings other distractions, I can't see a time when that would be usable without degradation of driving quality, so an overall ban makes sense - hands-free though can be okay / bad, so you ban the bad under driving without due care and attention, and allow the other...

I have mentioned above - in all of this the legislation has to balance:
- aiming for zero deaths / injuries / accidents
- workable real life

if you want zero deaths from motor vehicles, just ban all motor vehicles - easy.
however that doesn't work in real life - and real life is complex and does include things which are risky
we shouldn't ban risk - we need to understand and teach new generations how to recognise and manage risk - banning it ironically makes that harder

Alasdair