EU - where did it go wrong?

[Strangely Brown]

Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave.....

What is your position if the reports of the move to a European super-state [thenews.pl, source is 'TVP Info' Polish news website] prove to be well founded?

Given it only seems to have been proposed on the back of us voting to leave the EU...

If you really believe that then you either haven't been following the discussion or are wilfully ignoring it.

The end-game for the EU project is, and always has been, a single European super-state. It has been the intention right from the start and, if the whole stinking edifice doesn't fall apart now, TPTB will push as hard as they can to change the game such that others cannot leave later.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[jont-]

Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.

Gah. I'm getting bored of hearing this. It is not a valid argument. I have no chance of having my views represented at westminster since I disagree with both major parties policies - if you live in a "safe" constituency, unless you agree with the "safe" party, your vote has /no/ value. At least the EU has PR, so my vote has some value.

[jont-]

Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave.....

What is your position if the reports of the move to a European super-state [thenews.pl, source is 'TVP Info' Polish news website] prove to be well founded?

Given it only seems to have been proposed on the back of us voting to leave the EU...

If you really believe that then you either haven't been following the discussion or are wilfully ignoring it.

The end-game for the EU project is, and always has been, a single European super-state. It has been the intention right from the start and, if the whole stinking edifice doesn't fall apart now, TPTB will push as hard as they can to change the game such that others cannot leave later.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

And again, why is this such a bad idea? I've have the courtesy to address the points on freedom of movement, defence and tax that article above - now please tell me why it is such a bad idea.

[sussex2]

I've seen it in Spain where today, 80 years after the Civil War ended, there are people who will not talk to one another. It is responsible for the virtual silence you get in many public places such as trains and aircraft; you don't open the conversation because you never know where it is going to go.

Is your purpose to talk up the divisions? We'll only have the result you predict if we, collectively, are stupid enough to choose it.

Well, since we were collectively stupid enough to vote leave.....

Again, talking up the divisions.

I can understand people not understanding the financial markets and reacting to the doom and gloom of the populist papers. I can sympathise with those who are disapointed in a political figure who is refusing to accept his part in 'remains' downfall. I can certainly understand those who are concerned for the future and want some reassurance.

But those like yourself and others in remain who are intent on stirring up the divisions, hatred and dissatisfaction are far worse than any of the leavers I've come across so far. Yes, it will be nice for you to see it fail, even if that brings despair, simply so that you can say "I told you so". But it's sad to see.

Quoting the man on the BBC when the announcement was made (I forget his name) 'This is a seismic change'
You cannot have such massive change without division; such a thing is simply not possible.
In time the rifts may heal but they will never go away.
At such an early time there will be many people who have not yet felt the full effects; indeed that may not happen for years.
The decision to have this referendum was made in a moment of panic; such actions rarely end well.

[akirk]

Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.

Gah. I'm getting bored of hearing this. It is not a valid argument. I have no chance of having my views represented at westminster since I disagree with both major parties policies - if you live in a "safe" constituency, unless you agree with the "safe" party, your vote has /no/ value. At least the EU has PR, so my vote has some value.

Okay, you are correct that as an individual you don't have that power, but no-one does anywhere in the world! But as a people we absolutely do have that power as was demonstrated on Thursday by the majority voting against the view of the politicians.

Alasdair

[sussex2]

Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.

Gah. I'm getting bored of hearing this. It is not a valid argument. I have no chance of having my views represented at westminster since I disagree with both major parties policies - if you live in a "safe" constituency, unless you agree with the "safe" party, your vote has /no/ value. At least the EU has PR, so my vote has some value.

Okay, you are correct that as an individual you don't have that power, but no-one does anywhere in the world! But as a people we absolutely do have that power as was demonstrated on Thursday by the majority voting against the view of the politicians.

Alasdair

I've always believed that voting forms should always have another section 'None of the above' or in the last case 'Neither of the above'.

[jont-]

Because we can vote Westminster MPs out, we can't alter those in control in the EU.

Gah. I'm getting bored of hearing this. It is not a valid argument. I have no chance of having my views represented at westminster since I disagree with both major parties policies - if you live in a "safe" constituency, unless you agree with the "safe" party, your vote has /no/ value. At least the EU has PR, so my vote has some value.

Okay, you are correct that as an individual you don't have that power, but no-one does anywhere in the world! But as a people we absolutely do have that power as was demonstrated on Thursday by the majority voting against the view of the politicians.

Eh? Other countries do have PR for their national parliaments, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Politicians were split on the referendum, and it also seems the leavers are busy back-tracking
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36641390

[Strangely Brown]

What is your position if the reports of the move to a European super-state [thenews.pl, source is 'TVP Info' Polish news website] prove to be well founded?

Given it only seems to have been proposed on the back of us voting to leave the EU...

If you really believe that then you either haven't been following the discussion or are wilfully ignoring it.

The end-game for the EU project is, and always has been, a single European super-state. It has been the intention right from the start and, if the whole stinking edifice doesn't fall apart now, TPTB will push as hard as they can to change the game such that others cannot leave later.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

And again, why is this such a bad idea? I've have the courtesy to address the points on freedom of movement, defence and tax that article above - now please tell me why it is such a bad idea.

It is not just about freedom of movement, defence and tax. The goal is total union. The individual nation states will, ultimately, cease to exist.

The reason it is such a bad idea is because it is a union that is being brought about without the consent of the people. We have been brought this far into it without ever being asked if it is what we want. You are quite vociferous that you are unable to have your voice heard in Westminster yet you ask why not being able to have your voice heard in the EU is such a bad thing?

[jont-]

The reason it is such a bad idea is because it is a union that is being brought about without the consent of the people. We have been brought this far into it without ever being asked if it is what we want. You are quite vociferous that you are unable to have your voice heard in Westminster yet you ask why not being able to have your voice heard in the EU is such a bad thing?

Where have I said my voice isn't heard in the EU?

Perhaps the EU problem is the piss poor turnout at Euro elections. Not much point voicing that they don't listen if you haven't bothered to vote (and yes, I do vote in UK elections despite the wish for a "none of the above" box or that a sufficiently large number of spoiled ballots would mean something).

[Rolyan]

I'm sure there would be lots of problems with a superstate - not least accountability and stopping pork barrel politics.....why do people feel the UK is the /right/ size to represent/govern them?

Most leavers I've spoken to believe that the nearer a governing body is, the more able it is to understand the problems. They are less likely to enforce unwanted laws and policies. They are more accountable and moe easily removed.

I appreciate that you wanted to remain and it's good that everyone has different prioruties and views. But are you saying that you seriously can't understand why so many people want the UK to govern the UK?

Not exactly - I'm more bemused/frustrated by the idea that they think Westminster /is/ accountable and that our politicians have anything other than their own careers/vested interests in mind and are capable of planning beyond the horizon of the next [leadership] election

Perhaps you could give me some concrete examples of legislation that Westminster wanted to enact that the EU wouldn't let them? Not the mud slinging FUD that is often trotted out, but real examples. Not quite EU (as it's ECHR), but the video in this link is quite good.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/vid ... r-us-video

Of course Westminster is more accountable; MPs are accountable because they can be voted out. Nick Clegg is regretting that accountability. So have many others in the past. Even Corbyn, who is walking my party into the abys, is ultimately accountable.

In the past 25 years, a 1/4 of our laws have come from the EU. In 2010 the Givernment issued a report where they said that 50% of the legislation that had 'significant' impact had come from the EU.

All many of us want is a situation where we can elect or get rid of a body that passes laws that affects us. That's what I and others want. The specific laws are not really the issue, as they become subjective. It's the principle. I don't want Brussels telling the UK we have to do this, or can't do that. I want the elected government to stand up and be counted and I want the ability to get rid of them.