Dissertation survey

[Horse]

I think it was 'only' half of them

[waremark]

I once experienced a vehicle fire on a Swiss motorway. We stopped on the hard shoulder in view of a camera. A police car arrived with fire extinguishers inside one minute. If you could get an emergency vehicle to anyone stopped on an otherwise running lane in that sort of time frame smart motorways would not be very dangerous. (Incidentally, although the fire was extinguished rapidly and the car looked intact from the outside, it was written off by the insurance company. I was taken to a hire car station in the police car).

[Horse]

I once experienced a vehicle fire on a Swiss motorway. We stopped on the hard shoulder in view of a camera. A police car arrived with fire extinguishers inside one minute.

On any typical motorway, you're probably never further than errr ... half an hour from a Traffic Officer. Closer is pot luck.

And even then IIRC they don't carry fire extinguishers (they're wearing plastic jackets and aren't trained to fight vehicle fires).

Police don't AFAIK carry out 'routine' patrols, they'll be targeted operations.

Getting an ambo or fire there? How far do they have a fire station, is there even an ambo available?

I live near M4 J12-13. It's the second longest link on the network. There are no 'secret junction' access points, so if you have an incident just before an exit slip they will need to travel 12 motorway miles plus off-network to get there. Best wishes if you're on the M6 at Shap ...

[Strangely Brown]

Had need to travel from Sussex to the Dartford Crossing today and it required the use of "Smart" Motorway for a lot of the M23 and M25.

Once on the M25 (anti-clockwise) we saw a broken down vehicle in L1 on the opposite carriageway. They had not managed to make it to a refuse and were blocking the lane.

Behind them was a Highways Agency womble and another vehicle with a huge keep right sign on the back. Behind those was at least 6 or 7 miles of stationary and v.slow moving traffic.

Within that traffic, about 3 or 4 miles back from the blockage, was an ambulance on blues desperately trying to get through the traffic but they couldn't because there was nowhere for anyone to be able to move out of the way and no hard shoulder to ease their progress. It was, not to put too fine a point on it, an absolute shit show.

I can only hope that the "breakdown" was not due to a "medical incident" with the ambulance on the way to to them. The fuckwittery of design and consequence was clear for all to see.

[Gareth]

The fuckwittery of design and consequence was clear for all to see.

While not disagreeing, might it be that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one? Depending on the frequency of breakdowns, it might be the gain in economic activity dwarfs the loss when there is an inconveniently positioned breakdown.

Accidents are something else since even with a hard shoulder the traffic quickly becomes a stationary queue, typically in both directions. Saying that, the last one I got caught up in was on the M25 recently, a huge vehicle with a stripey back and yellow flashing lights came passed on the intermittent hard shoulder then parked itself in lane 1 under a bridge, forcing traffic into lane 2 and tidily avoiding the large van that had spun and had a bashed in front end.

[Horse]

an ambulance on blues desperately trying to get through the traffic but they couldn't because there was nowhere for anyone to be able to move out of the way and no hard shoulder to ease their progress. It was, not to put too fine a point on it, an absolute shit show.

There's plenty of room (lanes 1 & 2 are typically 10ft wide. On 4 lane sections, lanes e & 4 may be slightly narrower) to move aside and create an emergency 'rescue' corridor. See 2:00.



Common in Europe. Drivers know to do it.

A few years ago I contacted HE (as they were then) and suggested that they add a new sign to the options available on VMS.

'Not necessary', apparently.

Highways Agency

Pssst they've changed their name, to 'Highways England' then again to 'National Highways'.

[Strangely Brown]

There's plenty of room (lanes 1 & 2 are typically 10ft wide. On 4 lane sections, lanes e & 4 may be slightly narrower) to move aside and create an emergency 'rescue' corridor. See 2:00.

There is a big difference between theory and reality, advice and practice and if the lane is already full of traffic when they put the Red 'X' on it is not going to help.

In this case, people were trying to let the ambulance through but it was painfully slow progress. Doesn't the title of that video contain the words, "Every second counts"?

It's all very well saying that the needs of the one and economic gains etc but would you feel the same if it were Mrs Horse or Foal that were "the one"?

[Horse]

In this case, people were trying to let the ambulance through but it was painfully slow progress.

I'm not defending smart motorways, I'm saying that drivers could easily have created room for the ambo.
Either
If Red Xs were displayed, keeping out of that lane
Or
Creating a corridor by moving across

Both would allow unimpeded progress. Both rely on the public.

[Strangely Brown]

In this case, people were trying to let the ambulance through but it was painfully slow progress.

I'm not defending smart motorways, I'm saying that drivers could easily have created room for the ambo.
Either
If Red Xs were displayed, keeping out of that lane
Or
Creating a corridor by moving across

Both would allow unimpeded progress. Both rely on the public.

You can assert that people should have been able to part magically like the red sea all you like but the fact remains that it wasn't easy to move out of the way so they couldn't.

I have, just about, enough faith left in the average driver to believe that if it were possible quickly to make way for the ambulance then they would have done so and, as I said, they were clearly trying, but there was nowhere to go. Hint: cars cannot move bodily sideways, they need to move forward in order to do that to any useful degree, it's even worse for LGVs, and in stationary traffic there is no meaningful room until the car in front moves first - even when stopped with tyres on tarmac visible, which most do not.

In the real world - as opposed to that of the magical fairy dust planners - once you have 3 (or 4) lanes of stationary traffic things are pretty much buggered and it grows backwards very quickly. No plan survives first contact with the enemy/public/reality and regardless of what people should or shouldn't do the road has been unnecessarily constrained and a vital emergency facility has been removed. Motorways were originally designed with a hard shoulder for a very good reason.

I am becoming increasingly convinced that road planning these days is mostly carried out by people who do not drive and only ever simulate traffic flows in computer models. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Horse]

You can assert that people should have been able to part magically

Odd, then, that I've been in queues where it's been done.

Once was on the A34 in Hampshire - so no hard shoulder. Chemical incident, so all sorts of emergency vehicles attending. Everyone just made room down the centre.

Perhaps that magic of which you speak is strong in this part of the UK?

if it were possible quickly to make way for the ambulance then they would have done so and, as I said, they were clearly trying, but there was nowhere to go. Hint: cars cannot move bodily sideways, they need to move forward in order to do that to any useful degree, it's even worse for LGVs, and in stationary traffic there is no meaningful room until the car in front moves first - even when stopped with tyres on tarmac visible, which most do not.

See above. In similar situations I've just tooted to get the driver ahead's attention. That soon cascades along.

In the real world - as opposed to that of the magical fairy dust planners - once you have 3 (or 4) lanes of stationary traffic things are pretty much buggered and it grows backwards very quickly.

Indeed. Of course, it will grow more quickly with only 3 lanes rather than 4 ...

No plan survives first contact with the enemy/public/reality

I like that. Goes well with:
Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.
Attributed to Eisenhower, but IIRC it's older.

I am becoming increasingly convinced that road planning these days is mostly carried out by people who do not drive and only ever simulate traffic flows in computer models.

I saw years ago that traffic flows act like fluid dynamics.