It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

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Triquet
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby Triquet » Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:28 pm

Excellent post HIR, but I do suspect that driving competence is normally distributed. A drive round the M25 will reveal that the majority of drivers drive in a reasonable manner. If 95% had "unconscious incompetence" the whole thing would descend into terminal gridlock. But a huge number do drive on "unobservant autopilot" (which also explains the 40mph phenonemon). Maybe there are 5% who genuinely drive well. But at the other tail of the distribution there are maybe 5% who are truly appalling drivers and should have their keys surgically removed.

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jont-
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby jont- » Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:24 pm

Triquet wrote:Excellent post HIR, but I do suspect that driving competence is normally distributed. A drive round the M25 will reveal that the majority of drivers drive in a reasonable manner. If 95% had "unconscious incompetence" the whole thing would descend into terminal gridlock. But a huge number do drive on "unobservant autopilot" (which also explains the 40mph phenonemon). Maybe there are 5% who genuinely drive well. But at the other tail of the distribution there are maybe 5% who are truly appalling drivers and should have their keys surgically removed.

I think you're excessively generous. I'd say at least 25% of the driving population should be banned and routinely fall below the standards we should reasonably expect. Unfortunately it's seen as a right, not a licensed activity and I don't see any politician with the willpower to tackle it. They'd much rather just keep dumbing down to an ever lower common denominator.

I can't think of any other similar activity that would allow you to pass a test once, yet have no further checks on knowledge/behaviour for decades.

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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby Gareth » Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:32 pm

Triquet wrote:A drive round the M25 will reveal that the majority of drivers drive in a reasonable manner.

It feels to me that I drive a different part of the M25.

I see drivers following too close, sometimes without thought but other times in an effort to bully another driver out of the way, even if there's nowhere for them to go.

I see terrible lane discipline; I can complete much of my commute in lanes 1 and 2 with a very much larger safety bubble than is necessary, so much so I find myself traveling under the speed limit yet passing vehicles to my right.

While I'm in this frame of mind I wonder if someone is able to satisfy my curiosity; are professional HGV drivers taught to change lanes a mile before the next junction, irrespective of traffic conditions and/or their own speed? I fear it must be so.

I see weaving in and out of lanes, sometimes at high speed, with only the finest of tolerances in terms of distance to other vehicles.

I see drivers leaning on other drivers when they want to change lanes, to force a space to be made. I see drivers not indicating an intention to change lanes, nor checking if other drivers have understood their intention.

I see drivers being completely unaware of what's behind them; drivers of emergency vehicles with flashing lights must get very frustrated at times. I think most drivers must be a lot harder of hearing than me; I often hear sirens and start actively looking for a blue flashing light, whereas others seem to only realise they're behind when they're right behind.

Triquet wrote:If 95% had "unconscious incompetence" the whole thing would descend into terminal gridlock

I'm not sure that follows.

When I looked on Wikipedia I read the definition as being "The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill." which, it seems to me, allows for a wide range not understanding how to do something, and/or denying the usefulness of a skill.
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akirk
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby akirk » Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:42 pm

Gareth wrote:It feels to me that I drive a different part of the M25.

I see drivers following too close, sometimes without thought but other times in an effort to bully another driver out of the way, even if there's nowhere for them to go.

I see terrible lane discipline; I can complete much of my commute in lanes 1 and 2 with a very much larger safety bubble than is necessary, so much so I find myself traveling under the speed limit yet passing vehicles to my right.

While I'm in this frame of mind I wonder if someone is able to satisfy my curiosity; are professional HGV drivers taught to change lanes a mile before the next junction, irrespective of traffic conditions and/or their own speed? I fear it must be so.

I see weaving in and out of lanes, sometimes at high speed, with only the finest of tolerances in terms of distance to other vehicles.

I see drivers leaning on other drivers when they want to change lanes, to force a space to be made. I see drivers not indicating an intention to change lanes, nor checking if other drivers have understood their intention.

I see drivers being completely unaware of what's behind them; drivers of emergency vehicles with flashing lights must get very frustrated at times. I think most drivers must be a lot harder of hearing than me; I often hear sirens and start actively looking for a blue flashing light, whereas others seem to only realise they're behind when they're right behind.


But:
- if they don't have an accident / injure themselves / die
- if they don't cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

then is that not sufficient driving level?

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jont-
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby jont- » Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:56 pm

akirk wrote:
Gareth wrote:It feels to me that I drive a different part of the M25.

I see drivers following too close, sometimes without thought but other times in an effort to bully another driver out of the way, even if there's nowhere for them to go.

I see terrible lane discipline; I can complete much of my commute in lanes 1 and 2 with a very much larger safety bubble than is necessary, so much so I find myself traveling under the speed limit yet passing vehicles to my right.

While I'm in this frame of mind I wonder if someone is able to satisfy my curiosity; are professional HGV drivers taught to change lanes a mile before the next junction, irrespective of traffic conditions and/or their own speed? I fear it must be so.

I see weaving in and out of lanes, sometimes at high speed, with only the finest of tolerances in terms of distance to other vehicles.

I see drivers leaning on other drivers when they want to change lanes, to force a space to be made. I see drivers not indicating an intention to change lanes, nor checking if other drivers have understood their intention.

I see drivers being completely unaware of what's behind them; drivers of emergency vehicles with flashing lights must get very frustrated at times. I think most drivers must be a lot harder of hearing than me; I often hear sirens and start actively looking for a blue flashing light, whereas others seem to only realise they're behind when they're right behind.


But:
- if they don't have an accident / injure themselves / die
- if they don't cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

then is that not sufficient driving level?

What about all the time they are stealing from other road users by causing the traffic to be slower than it could be? The extra roads capacity that is built to deal with their inability to be in the correct lane when not overtaking? The time lost in congestion? The stress caused to other road users frustrated with the general standard of incompetence?

Sadly I suspect your view is why nothing is being done about it, but to say that it's not a problem is bollocks.

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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby Gareth » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:47 pm

akirk wrote:then is that not sufficient driving level?

It's like rolling dice. It's not great that the safety of driver A relies so much on the forbearance of drivers X, Y and Z, but many drivers seem more than willing to assume others will do their thinking for them.

That driving too close is so common; I see too many sad sights of drivers upset after smashing the front of their cars. Maybe I don't see it often enough for it to be real problem?
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Strangely Brown
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:51 pm

akirk wrote:But:
- if they don't have an accident / injure themselves / die
- if they don't cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

then is that not sufficient driving level?


If someone turns up for a driving test and manages to drive for the duration of the test without:

- having an accident / injure themselves / die
- cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

Why is that alone not sufficient for them to be given a licence? It would certainly make testing a *lot* easier and quicker.

I think you actually already know the answer to that so it is somewhat rhetorical, and I don't believe for one second that you believe that *is* a sufficient driving level.

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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby hir » Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:20 pm

akirk wrote:
Gareth wrote:It feels to me that I drive a different part of the M25.

I see drivers following too close, sometimes without thought but other times in an effort to bully another driver out of the way, even if there's nowhere for them to go.

I see terrible lane discipline…


But:
- if they don't have an accident / injure themselves / die
- if they don't cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

then is that not sufficient driving level?


Hi akirk, I know you were being gently sardonic when you posted… “is that not a sufficient driving level?”, but I do think you have put your finger on the problem. When trying to spread the “word” about advanced driving, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had someone say to me… “why would I want to do that? I’m a good driver. I’ve never had an accident, so I must be OK. But, you’re right, there are so many idiots out there, they’re the ones you should be talking to.”

Both IAM and RoSPA have an uphill task in persuading the general public to take an interest in improving their driving. It’s not easy, which is maybe why previous senior IAM management decided to pursue the easier option of “promoting road safety”, to the detriment of the core function of the IAM which, as we all know, is to improve driver skills. But, senior management is not solely responsible for this. The Trustees appoint the executives and are ultimately responsible for the direction of the charity.

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akirk
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby akirk » Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:39 pm

hir wrote:
akirk wrote:
Gareth wrote:It feels to me that I drive a different part of the M25.

I see drivers following too close, sometimes without thought but other times in an effort to bully another driver out of the way, even if there's nowhere for them to go.

I see terrible lane discipline…


But:
- if they don't have an accident / injure themselves / die
- if they don't cause anyone else to be in an accident / injured / or die

then is that not sufficient driving level?


Hi akirk, I know you were being gently sardonic when you posted… “is that not a sufficient driving level?”, but I do think you have put your finger on the problem. When trying to spread the “word” about advanced driving, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had someone say to me… “why would I want to do that? I’m a good driver. I’ve never had an accident, so I must be OK. But, you’re right, there are so many idiots out there, they’re the ones you should be talking to.”

Both IAM and RoSPA have an uphill task in persuading the general public to take an interest in improving their driving. It’s not easy, which is maybe why previous senior IAM management decided to pursue the easier option of “promoting road safety”, to the detriment of the core function of the IAM which, as we all know, is to improve driver skills. But, senior management is not solely responsible for this. The Trustees appoint the executives and are ultimately responsible for the direction of the charity.


Indeed, and the problem is that if you are already at that low level of expertise where you see no negative outcome, then improving offers you nothing extra. The simple reality is that for all of us on here and involved in Advanced Driving elsewhere, the extra skill gives no other real benefit than a satisfaction in how we drive...
- I don't arrive much faster
- I am not statistically much safer
- I definitely consume more fuel :)

So, how do you sell something which appears to have no advantage? In reality you can't sell it as safety, we all know that in improving skill you can increase safety margin in your driving, but equally you can choose to raise risk and maintain safety margin (which many of do in the form of increased speed etc.). In reality, the only people I have known to be interested have been those who see the satisfaction in driving at a higher level - and that is a tough concept to sell

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Strangely Brown
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Re: It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:54 pm

So, why do people have music lessons/coaching in order to play better. Isn't the tune recognisable already? To varying degrees can you not ask the same question of pretty much any coaching?

Personally, I think Joe Schmoe and John Q. Public are not the right target audience. They will only ever want to get better - and they have to want to first - if, any only if they have been exposed to the "higher" standards and can see for themselves something that they want.

The target audience should be as it always has been. i.e. Those drivers who want to improve already.

Otherwise... you can lead a horse etc etc.
Last edited by Strangely Brown on Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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