It’s chilling that people drive at 81 mph on the motorway – says IAM Roadsmart

[Horse]

if there are real benefits from 'advanced' driving, shouldn't they be incorporated into 'L' training so that every driver benefits instead of just the few who voluntarily take further training?

Learners learn how to do legal then, apparently, promptly forget. They're sometimes taught less than helpful rules of thumb ... 1 second in 1st, 2 seconds in 2nd, 3 seconds in 3rd, ...

If we were to assume that advanced <anything> is about learning (to do) something at a higher skill level, how well equipped are most novices to do this, how much extra training might it take, and how well will it stick?

Soon after you and John showed me 'hinting', we were with friends in Cumbria.

Going out for a trip m, their 'L' daughter wanted to get some practice. She was fairly well along towards the test by then. I was delegated to supervise, with the expectation of some coaching.

Same as I did with Foal, when he was learning, early obs etc.

But I talked their daughter through hinting too. She picked it up, with the early obs stuff, almost instant better driving.

[Horse]

For musicians, those outcomes can be measured: same person before and after with increased abilities and skills. Big difference, though: be able to demonstrate Grade 6 scales and performance pieces might be life improving - but it isn't being identified in the blurb as life saving.

Do you believe that driving skills and performance cannot be measured pre and post training. If it is not measurable then how does testing work?

You say that the blurb does not mention it being identified as life saving? If you have a copy of Roadcraft - 1977 Blue Book then read the introduction. Specifically the sentence immediately after the one I quoted earlier.

If you want, I have copies back to pre-Roadcraft (in name), to check further. However, that isn't going to happen right now (I've just been shifting concrete and am having a rest, thank you for asking )

IAM claim is "making our roads safer by improving driver and rider skills through coaching".

So how do you measure 'safer'. Well, you can't. You can measure risk, you can record crashes, you can record casualties. 'Crashes' is what the IAM research measured, not exactly an overwhelming vote in favour, was it?Instead, some (IMHO) worrying issues that deserve to be addressed.

Perhaps, for the public, that 4t year old statement no longer holds true?

[Horse]

Otherwise... you can lead a horse etc etc.

Would I be that Horse?

I was aware as I typed that the connection may be made, but no. It is simply "a" horse. Lowercase "h". Not "the" Horse. Uppercase "H".

Didn't think so, but you might have been disappointed if I hadn't commented

As for sales etc., from my - limited and outdated - experience, car and bike groups are very different. Guessing, there's probably also much greater availability of professional advanced training for bikers than drivers.

Is the shuffler, pipe and slippers, image till valid? What message do you think Groups and HQ should present. The origin of this thread was what is not wanted - so (open to everyone) what *do* you want?

Image
Message
Validation (evidence)
Relevance (to the public)
- or who, if not the public, is the target audience?

[Gareth]

'hinting'

I talked their daughter through hinting too. She picked it up, with the early obs stuff, almost instant better driving.

I generally think if you can help someone feel something different then that sticks longest, but much of advanced is about looking in the right place to see things of potentially greater significance, thinking about what you've seen, and deciding what to do with it. All that is more difficult, harder to learn (especially for a novice already overwhelmed with what they need in order to pass the test), harder to make second nature, and more easily consigned to something a person can or could do rather than something they do do.

As Strangely Brown has been saying, the desire to learn is something that has to come from within, and probably it's not something that can be 'sold' to a person. My view is that it's best presented in aspirational terms; there might be multiple ways in which people could be hooked, raising various ideas / ideals / points to find the one they hadn't realised they actually want. It also requires that they are in the position to be able consider and try new ideas, which generally only happens after they have sufficient experience, and possibly a few knocks, along the way.

For me it was that I wanted to drive better. I didn't know what that meant, but that's what I wanted. I didn't know how to find what would satisfy that desire and it was only happenstance that got me started. And then a second unlikely situation that really got me moving.

When I took part in the ADUK and ADHub driving days, I tried to make it fun for everyone I met. Didn't always work, one notable exception in particular when I hadn't understood that a person probably liked cars more than driving and, while they owned a powerful car, they weren't much interested in using its performance. But, in general, I figured if a person had fun and, maybe, felt they'd learned something, they'd be back for more. I've tried to do the same with the associates who've been unfortunate enough to be pointed my way; so much easier getting points across if they've been hoodwinked into thinking they're having fun ...

[Strangely Brown]

Otherwise... you can lead a horse etc etc.

Would I be that Horse?

I was aware as I typed that the connection may be made, but no. It is simply "a" horse. Lowercase "h". Not "the" Horse. Uppercase "H".

Didn't think so, but you might have been disappointed if I hadn't commented

No. Seriously. I wouldn't.
Strange as it may seem, not everything is about you.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is the shuffler, pipe and slippers, image till valid? What message do you think Groups and HQ should present. The origin of this thread was what is not wanted - so (open to everyone) what *do* you want?

Image
Message
Validation (evidence)
Relevance (to the public)
- or who, if not the public, is the target audience?

I have no idea whether the image is still valid other than to think that if it weren't then it would unlikely be a joke in popular culture.

What do I want from the IAM?
Personally, nothing. I parted ways with them decades ago. Too many double standards and it was all about the money even way back then.

[Horse]

much of advanced is about looking in the right place to see things of potentially greater significance, thinking about what you've seen, and deciding what to do with it. All that is more difficult, harder to learn (especially for a novice already overwhelmed with what they need in order to pass the test), harder to make second nature, and more easily consigned to something a person can or could do rather than something they do do.

The UK's hazard perception test has been credited with an 11% reduction in casualties (I can't remember the exact result wording). There is probably scope to expand that aspect for all driver training, not just post-test, e.g.:

Evaluation of an insight driver-training program for young drivers

Abstract
Traditional driver-training programs that aim to increase vehicle-handling and manoeuvring skills have previously been related, somewhat counter-intuitively, to an actual increase in the crash rate of young drivers. This is believed primarily to be due to associated increases in confidence that result in greater risk taking while driving. MUARC was commissioned to evaluate a driver-training program that alternatively aimed to provide greater insight and awareness of potential risks when driving, thereby targeting issues of over-confidence rather than traditional advanced driving skills. The Skilled Drivers of Australia driver-training program was developed for 18-25 year-olds and results in reduced comprehensive insurance premiums for AAMI Insurance holders. Questionnaires on attitudes, behaviours, enforcement and crash risk were distributed to course participants during 2000, first, on enrolling in the course, second, just before or just after participation in the course (to form control and case groups), and finally, 8-9 weeks following completion of the course. Repeated measures analyses identified several positive changes in attitudes, behaviours and perceptions of crash risk following course participation. Qualitative analysis of open-ended responses on general feedback about the course complemented these findings. It was concluded that the insight training program conducted by AAMI / Skilled Drivers effected positive changes that were likely to reduce the risk of crash involvement of the young drivers. Several practical recommendations were provided to enhance these positive outcomes and more conclusively evaluate the potential reduction in crash risk.

something that has to come from within, and probably it's not something that can be 'sold' to a person. My view is that it's best presented in aspirational terms;

... multiple ways in which people could be hooked, raising various ideas / ideals / points to find the one they hadn't realised they actually want.

It shouldn't be too difficult to find what deficiencies drivers feel they have - i.e. what they aspire to becoming - and generate training and courses around those. It could involve aspects that they never knew about, that could be improved, 'knowns and unknowns'.

Also, what are drivers pain points, or frustrations?

It also requires that they are in the position to be able consider and try new ideas, which generally only happens after they have sufficient experience, and possibly a few knocks, along the way.

Unfortunately for riders, they first have to survive the experience

[Triquet]

Thank you everybody for a most enjoyable thread. It's getting a bit close to theology at times but it does make one think ....

[Horse]

You say that the blurb does not mention it being identified as life saving? If you have a copy of Roadcraft - 1977 Blue Book then read the introduction. Specifically the sentence immediately after the one I quoted earlier.

Actually, from IAM, I quoted:

IAM RoadSmart is the UK's leading road safety charity ... we’ve spent more than 60 years making our roads safer by improving driver and rider skills through coaching and education.

FWIW, that introduction, with 'save life' following, wasn't in earlier editions.

[Strangely Brown]

In context...

A more complete quote from Roadcraft - 1977 - "The Blue Book" is:

The aim of the following chapters is to raise the reader's standard of driving to the highest possible degree of all-round efficiency. A vehicle can be a lethal weapon and, like a gun, it should be handled with care ; the advice which follows is not intended to reduce the pleasure to be gained from driving, in fact the opposite is true, the more confidence and knowledge at a driver's disposal the greater his capacity for enjoying and taking pride in his driving. Furthermore, if the reader follows this advice he may one day save somebody's life ... perhaps even his own.

My emphasis.

I really don't care what the IAM marketing blurb says these days. They stopped being the advanced driving organisation that I once knew a long time ago.

[exportmanuk]

Yesterdays Facebook post

Acceptability of speeding on motorways is still far too high but the downward trends of drivers’ opinions are a positive sign. Actual speeding behaviour in towns and cities has also improved as more and more drivers appear to understand the link between speed and serious injury.

“Those who believe it is acceptable to drive at speeds greater than the limit are simply not listening to the warnings or taking notice of the frequent police messaging. Speeding is responsible for around 12 deaths each day on UK roads, we clearly need to do more to educate drivers on the fatal consequences of speeding

Once again promoting the myth that a number on a stick is a safe speed.