Brake and their RoadMap

[Gareth]

The government has yet to confirm if the figures include deaths and serious injuries on closed roads during races.

Takes away the headline, doesn't it. So it tells us nothing.

[Horse]

The government has yet to confirm if the figures include deaths and serious injuries on closed roads during races.

Takes away the headline, doesn't it. So it tells us nothing.

Apparently,
Between 1907 and 2019 there have been 151 fatalities during official practices or races on the Snaefell Mountain Course, and 260 total fatalities (this number includes the riders killed during the Manx Grand Prix, and Clubman TT race series of the late 1940s/1950s).

I had a quick look for total IoM stats.

For fatals, 1993-2011: 174

But you make a good point, that one thing of 'no speed limit' can't be seen in isolation. IoM history means certain roads don't have any maximum speed limit, which is associated with the riding demonstrated by visitors, for example to the TT races. Anecdotally, some crashes were foreign visitors (there for the TT) forgetting which side of the road to use.

However, I don't know how the stats are for crash types or how they relate to particular roads or crash scenarios. They might (but probably didn't) involve pedestrians in 30 limit areas.

And, of course, the lack of a maximum limit on a particular road doesn't mean that any speed is a good idea. I've not been there, but have seen enough pics and video to know that it's little different to various road types over here.

[janetwise-griggs]

There was a legal case which included the topic of whether or not the human eye could reasonably judge the speed of a moving object coming straight towards said eye. The conclusion, after lots of expert witnesses had been called was something along the lines of "the human eye is not particularly good at this particular task".

[Gareth]

The conclusion, after lots of expert witnesses had been called was something along the lines of "the human eye is not particularly good at this particular task".

That's interesting; I've learned not to overtake in the face of oncoming traffic unless the distance is huge.

When I think about it, an overtaking opportunity is a situation with enough empty road and little to no risk from turning vehicles. Clearly this isn't taught to drivers, given the number I see passing cyclists without sufficient vision.

Edited to add: are riders taught to overtake?

[crr003]

The government has yet to confirm if the figures include deaths and serious injuries on closed roads during races.

Takes away the headline, doesn't it. So it tells us nothing.

Apparently,
Between 1907 and 2019 there have been 151 fatalities during official practices or races on the Snaefell Mountain Course, and 260 total fatalities (this number includes the riders killed during the Manx Grand Prix, and Clubman TT race series of the late 1940s/1950s).

I had a quick look for total IoM stats.

For fatals, 1993-2011: 174

But you make a good point, that one thing of 'no speed limit' can't be seen in isolation. IoM history means certain roads don't have any maximum speed limit, which is associated with the riding demonstrated by visitors, for example to the TT races. Anecdotally, some crashes were foreign visitors (there for the TT) forgetting which side of the road to use.

However, I don't know how the stats are for crash types or how they relate to particular roads or crash scenarios. They might (but probably didn't) involve pedestrians in 30 limit areas.

Here's you with your statistics again!
I was going to mention foreign bikers but I couldn't get to the keyboard quick enough! When I worked for the HA there'd quite often be biker RTCs/occasional deaths on the M6 as they headed to/from the ferries. On the safest road type in UK (with a hard shoulder in those days) and a speed limit. (No data to back that up though!)

And, of course, the lack of a maximum limit on a particular road doesn't mean that any speed is a good idea. I've not been there, but have seen enough pics and video to know that it's little different to various road types over here.

I'm surprised you wrote that - since when has a number on a stick been a safe speed?
I had an aunt and uncle live at the end of Sulby Straight. https://goo.gl/maps/XgmcYHvNotVoKtdU8
Good luck taking that right hander at speed (normal driving, not the TT thing).

[Horse]

On the safest road type in UK (with a hard shoulder in those days)

The M4 J13-15 was, at one time, IIRC one of the 'safest' bits or road in the UK. But also the site of one of the UK's worst crashes. And dangerous enough that the local speed camera partnership regularly had vans there.

[Horse]

And, of course, the lack of a maximum limit on a particular road doesn't mean that any speed is a good idea.

I'm surprised you wrote that - since when has a number on a stick been a safe speed?

Not quite sure what you read from that? Certainly it didn't say 'the speed limit = safe'.

As you go on to say (or imply), the limits are the road, road user(s) and vehicle(s).

[Triquet]

The M4 J13-15 was also host to some of the most egregious speeding. J13 (Newbury) to J12 (Theale) used to be even worse as there was a perception of "downhill" to Reading.

[Horse]

The M4 J13-15 was also host to some of the most egregious speeding. J13 (Newbury) to J12 (Theale) used to be even worse as there was a perception of "downhill" to Reading.

Quick look on OS maps shows it is, about 100m fall.

M'Lud

[vieuxtigre]

I belonged to Cycling Uk for years until I discovered that their policies are the same as Brake's in wanting 20/40 mph urban/rural speed limits, speed limiters in all vehicles and motorists generally pilloried but without teaching them essential skills. I wrote to their Chief Exec telling her why I was not renewing my membership, and te;lling her that her policies were misguided and ultimetely dangerous to cyclists. I have a reply stating that the policies would remain.
I enjoy cyc;ling and look for, and often get co-operation from other (motorised) road users. However, what really scares me sh*tess is being overtaken because not all drivers know how to do it safely and if they cock it up I'm probably the one they'll hit. I don't see Brake saying or doing anything constructive here.