Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

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crr003
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby crr003 » Sat May 14, 2022 11:20 am

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:if there are potential safety benefits from advanced stuff, then they should be incorporated into L training, so everyone benefits.

I think most learners have a limited capacity to absorb subtleties; they need to have internalised the basics first.

While I think the first additional step should be learned by learners, the kind of difference I'm thinking about is always stopping at roundabouts versus multitasking - aiming to stop at roundabouts while also looking ahead to see if it's clear to continue or, a step further, looking ahead for a circulating gap to use or, a step further, looking for an exiting vehicle that allows entry or, a step further, looking for a circulating vehicle that blocks the next vehicle to the right from entering.

I think I've read you mention this "stopping at roundabouts" thing before. No one teaches to stop first and look second. Not in my day. If you're seeing liveried ADIs doing this, complain to DVSA about them.
Now, I've had foreign licence holders do that, 'cos that's how they were taught in their country, but they only did it once.

crr003
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby crr003 » Sat May 14, 2022 11:40 am

Horse wrote:
waremark wrote:"Highly unlikely to have come from emphasis on making progress, positioning for bends and chasing the limit point, etc."

How do other Observers/Tutors sell the benefits of those elements of Advanced Driving. One of my lines is that for you to be called Advanced, you have to demonstrate that you can maintain safety and smoothness when you are taking your spouse to A&E/late for a meeting etc.


Have you ever tried driving 'against a clock', to reduce journey time? How much time, over what length of journey, do you think could legally be 'saved'?

And 'maintain' safety? If you increase your speed, what other changes are you making to balance the resulting reduction in safety (because of the effects on thinking and braking distance and reduced safety margins e.g. stopping distance around blind bends, the likely increased severity of a crash, etc.)?

Hang on, let me just check what forum I'm in..........
I thought I was in BRAKE for a minute.
'Advanced driving? Pointless. Just leave home an hour earlier and drive at 30 (except in a 20 obvs!)'.

Clearly the good old days of social driving are limited, but as long as IAM maintains however watered down a version of advanced driving/test, then we owe it to associates to show them what life used to be like!

crr003
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby crr003 » Sat May 14, 2022 12:21 pm

waremark wrote:"Highly unlikely to have come from emphasis on making progress, positioning for bends and chasing the limit point, etc."

How do other Observers/Tutors sell the benefits of those elements of Advanced Driving. One of my lines is that for you to be called Advanced, you have to demonstrate that you can maintain safety and smoothness when you are taking your spouse to A&E/late for a meeting etc.

I had one recently. The associate is keen to reduce fuel consumption, so questions the "making progress" element.
I say there's nothing wrong with pottering around in real life (as long as you're not causing an issue), but the Examiner wants to see that a) you know the speed limit and b) you can drive to that limit if safe.
Anyone can potter around at 30/40. It's how Learners pass.
We can also improve consumption with good observation - not accelerating to a red light etc.

I do the "kid to hospital" and "if you miss your booked ferry slot it'll cost you hundreds for the next one". You need to make safe and legal progress.

hir
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby hir » Sat May 14, 2022 3:38 pm

crr003 wrote:… as long as IAM maintains however watered down a version of advanced driving/test, then we owe it to associates to show them what life used to be like!


I’m interested to know in what way, or ways, has the IAM test been watered down? And, what did life used to be like?

hir
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby hir » Sat May 14, 2022 3:52 pm

crr003 wrote:… I had one recently. The associate is keen to reduce fuel consumption, so questions the "making progress”. I say… the Examiner wants to see that a) you know the speed limit and b) you can drive to that limit if safe.


Exactly this. I’m perhaps even more blunt. I also tell them that they have signed up for an advanced driving course, not an eco-driving course. And leave it at that. I don’t bother to debate the issue with them. If they push back, I just tell them I don’t know how to do eco-driving so can’t help them :D

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Horse
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby Horse » Sat May 14, 2022 5:58 pm

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:
waremark wrote:One of my lines is that for you to be called Advanced, you have to demonstrate that you can maintain safety and smoothness when you are taking your spouse to A&E/late for a meeting etc.

Have you ever tried driving 'against a clock', to reduce journey time? How much time, over what length of journey, do you think could legally be 'saved'

I think the questions miss the point


Ok, we got the 'headlines' explanation rather than the full sales spiel, but I wonder whether some people might hear what I read into it, and so switch off?

Gareth wrote:when people are anxious or flustered from feeling the pressure of time, their attention and roadcraft often goes to pot. People who still drive/ride well, safely, in such circumstances are clearly more advanced than those who don't.


If that's what the IAM cover, then fair enough :)

IIRC (And I haven't checked the latest edition) Roadcraft cautions against red mist and thinking about the emergency that the driver is heading to. It would be interesting to know how this is covered in dedicated blue light training.

Gareth wrote:accelerating through or away from hazards earlier
and more briskly
carrying more speed between hazards, firmer braking prior to hazards albeit retaining smooth transitions into and out of the firmer braking phase
being more assertive in looking for and taking the lane of least resistance
having better observation to spot when bus lanes aren't active


See next comment.

I have to wonder whether there's a cut-off with your list at which an examiner might say (after going through the list and applying ticks and crosses) "Based on the criteria, your grade is ___ "? ;)

Gareth wrote:Whether they make a huge difference is impossible to measure, of course.


A few years ago, I tried altering my driving to reduce the Satnav's predicted arrival time. Obviously only displayed in whole minutes, so not particularly accurate. From memory, over a fair distance, even travelling faster made little difference.

The driving changes, even cumulative, that you suggest are unlikely to make a massive difference to journey duration.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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Horse
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby Horse » Sat May 14, 2022 6:19 pm

hir wrote:
crr003 wrote:… as long as IAM maintains however watered down a version of advanced driving/test, then we owe it to associates to show them what life used to be like!


I’m interested to know in what way, or ways, has the IAM test been watered down? And, what did life used to be like?


I'd be interested to hear then and now too. But partly because all of my advanced training was outside of the IAM and RoSPA.

However, the only aspect I can think of is the GLF attitude and implicitly (or even explicitly) condoning breaking the speed limit during training and even on test.

For instance, on my IAM bike test the examiner overtook me (I slowed as traffic lights changed, he overtook and went through). I expected him to wait. He didn't, i could see him some way in the distance, still going. Without breaking the speed limit I would not have caught up.

Possibly, it could be other 'skills', such as enthusiastic positioning.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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Horse
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby Horse » Sat May 14, 2022 6:23 pm

crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:
And 'maintain' safety? If you increase your speed, what other changes are you making to balance the resulting reduction in safety (because of the effects on thinking and braking distance and reduced safety margins e.g. stopping distance around blind bends, the likely increased severity of a crash, etc.)?

Hang on, let me just check what forum I'm in..........
I thought I was in BRAKE for a minute.
'Advanced driving? Pointless. Just leave home an hour earlier and drive at 30 (except in a 20 obvs!)'.


Just for my own information and your entertainment, would you take the time to explain which bits of what I said were wrong?
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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jont-
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby jont- » Sat May 14, 2022 8:03 pm

crr003 wrote:[
I had one recently. The associate is keen to reduce fuel consumption, so questions the "making progress" element.
I say there's nothing wrong with pottering around in real life (as long as you're not causing an issue),

Perhaps suggest they get the bus?

There's everything wrong with pottering around if you're not facilitating progress of people around you.

Gareth
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Re: Has IAM Roadsmart given up on advanced training?

Postby Gareth » Sat May 14, 2022 8:16 pm

crr003 wrote:I think I've read you mention this "stopping at roundabouts" thing before. No one teaches to stop first and look second.

I know you qualified the point however, if you are with a learner in a car without dual controls, the first thing you probably want them to be able to do is to stop at a give way line. In my experience, learners are pretty terrible at this, but get better with seat time and caustic comments. They have at least two issues, one is an internal pressure to keep on going, maybe because they've seen others doing so seemingly without much effort. Another is managing the controls so that the car stops at or just before the line, while at the same time having a good look. Subtleties such as doing most of the braking away from the junction then easing off to allow a more spread out approach, with correspondingly more time to assess, either aren't taught or the priorities get handled in the wrong order. And then there are the priorities; which is more important? Stopping at the give way line, or looking for an opportunity to roll over it and onto the roundabout? Same at any other give way.

If this wasn't such a fundamental failing, I'm very sure that the advanced driving phrase that starts "planning to stop, ..." wouldn't even be a thing.
Last edited by Gareth on Sun May 15, 2022 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...


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