Discuss 'benefits'

[Horse]

Removed from the new members thread, not the right place for it.

what we know to be the benefits of "advanced driving", which I prefer to think of as driving properly.

What we know [is fact] about benefits, or what we think is fact about benefits?

More specifically, which element(s) that make up 'advanced' achieve results and which don't?

And, important in that, what is meant by 'benefits'? We all know the background, Met police accident rate etc. - but when talking about benefits, what is meant now, 90 years on, and what can be proven?

For example, better machine control could result in the benefit of 'smoothness', improved hazard perception and insight could improve safety, and better forward planning could reduce brake and tyre wear whilst improving fuel consumption.

However, are they what you mean by 'advanced'?

Really, all of those could be incorporated into L training. And if they're shown to be beneficial (particularly for safety) then perhaps they should be.

What would remain as solely 'advanced''?

[Gareth]

all of those could be incorporated into L training.

I'm not convinced this is realistic; unless we as a society are willing to demand a relatively high standard from learners, and are willing to deal with the inevitable increase in uninsured drivers caused by a higher standard for the test, then I think it's unlikely to happen. Also, it's becoming clear, the trend is in the other direction, as attempts are made to deskill driving.

[Horse]

all of those could be incorporated into L training.

I'm not convinced this is realistic; unless we as a society are willing to demand a relatively high standard from learners, and are willing to deal with the inevitable increase in uninsured drivers caused by a higher standard for the test, then I think it's unlikely to happen. Also, it's becoming clear, the trend is in the other direction, as attempts are made to deskill driving.

Some has already happened:

- Inclusion (then increase in pass %) of the HPT

- Eco driving assessed during the test
(https://www.gov.uk/guidance/understandi ... iving-test)

Presumably you mean car technology? If considering ABS, how many drivers are skilled enough to always be better than the electronics? Most drivers never went near a skidpan.

[Gareth]

Presumably you mean car technology?

I was thinking of, for example, lane assist, parallel parking assistance, 'auto-pilot', and so on. Also, 'intelligent' speed assist will take some of the 'burden' away from the driver.

I was struck by a comment I read from a driving enthusiast who has a Tesla saying, in effect, how relaxing it was on a long journey to be able to let the car do more of the work.

[Gareth]

Thinking more about 'intelligent' speed assist ... some weeks ago I was caught out on a two lane dual carriageway. I'd left an area of higher hazard density and had a 'moment' thinking I'd missed the NSL and was holding up others. I looked in the centre mirror and spotted two large 50 signs on the other carriageway, which seemed to confirm what I'd been thinking. Then I glanced at my satnav and saw it said the current limit was 70, so started to lift my speed. Then I spotted a camera van!

So, it turned out, the 50 had been extended, how long ago, I've no idea. My satnav mapping was from 2021, but course the data is out of date before it's available to download.

On Wednesday I was using Google Maps on my smartphone, on local roads, and realised it was telling me wrong about speed limits that have been lowered for maybe a year. It strikes me that if it's wrong in Google Maps, it's even more likely to be wrong in the systems fitted to new cars.

[Horse]

Presumably you mean car technology?

I was thinking of, for example, lane assist, parallel parking assistance, 'auto-pilot', and so on. Also, 'intelligent' speed assist will take some of the 'burden' away from the driver.

I was struck by a comment I read from a driving enthusiast who has a Tesla saying, in effect, how relaxing it was on a long journey to be able to let the car do more of the work.

I suppose it depends where in time you want to go back to. Early motor cars had manual ignition advance and retard, needed fuel pumped by hand, etc.

Or do you mean cable brakes rather than hydraulic?

etc etc etc

If you asked people over the last 50 years of test passes whether they're good, or even 'ok' at parallel parking, I'd guess most would say no.

With your Tesla example, presumably on major roads? But where do most crashes happen? On higher speed, straighter, roads, crashes are often due to overtaking fails.

And this is getting away from what, if any, benefits formal to test advanced training gives?

[jont-]

I was struck by a comment I read from a driving enthusiast who has a Tesla saying, in effect, how relaxing it was on a long journey to be able to let the car do more of the work.

I get fed up of explaining to Tesla owners that the only reason they feel more relaxed is because they're admitting to DWDCA, given the systems in the car aren't actually certified for autonomous operation. How do you know the car is missing things until it's too late? And yet they still don't seem to understand

[Gareth]

And this is getting away from what, if any, benefits formal to test advanced training gives?

While that might be true, it started out by following one of your questions

I picked on that because we've had this discussion before, started by you asking the same questions, and I think it's rather more interesting to consider the consequences of making the driving test more difficult -- reducing the pass rate -- and whether newer technology is making driving easier or merely making drivers less engaged.

Perhaps, instead of asking about the real or perceived benefits of advanced techniques, and whether they should be rolled into the standard test, you might be explicit in stating your views on that question.

FWIW, having seen drivers struggle with what I consider fairly basic techniques, I'm strongly of the opinion that increasing the mental work-load for new drivers is probably a really bad idea, since they'd be better served by concentrating on the very simplest of techniques, recognising hazards and not barrelling into them too quickly.

From my very limited experience, the stress for new drivers is such that they often focus on the thing that comes next, rather than the thing that's urgent right now.

[jont-]

Are new drivers really the problem, or is it more 'experienced' drivers who have become lazy and forgotten the basics more of an issue?

[Horse]

And this is getting away from what, if any, benefits formal to test advanced training gives?

While that might be true, it started out by following one of your questions

Indeed it was. Which is why I gave a fairly lengthy answer.

However, this post of yours deserves a lengthy response too. But that will be tomorrow