'Highest'?

Topics relating to Advanced Driving on anything that is not a car or bike, from lorries to vans, buses to hovercrafts...
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Horse
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Horse » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:29 pm

See the bit where I listed 'congested' & '50 limits' & 'double white lines'. Good luck if you can 'make progress' under those circumstances! I'd like to know how :)
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

waremark
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby waremark » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:00 am

Horse wrote:See the bit where I listed 'congested' & '50 limits' & 'double white lines'. Good luck if you can 'make progress' under those circumstances! I'd like to know how :)

The driving enthusiasts among us go out of our way to drive on the sort of roads which offer the opportunity to exercise skill. I just watched Reg's video no 48 driving a souped up my M4 on the Hartside Pass between Alston and Melmerby. I drove that road in a similar car a couple of weeks ago. I find trying to drive a road like that as well as possible a stimulating and demanding challenge. As it happens I also enjoy trying to make the smoothest açcurate and safe progress through suburban traffic. I also enjoy trying to jump through different sets of hoops.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Strangely Brown » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:11 am

Horse wrote:See the bit where I listed 'congested' & '50 limits' & 'double white lines'. Good luck if you can 'make progress' under those circumstances! I'd like to know how :)


You can make extra progress by thinking. e.g.: A couple of weeks ago I was in very heavy traffic on the M25/M23 but, by watching far enough ahead and thinking about what was coming up, I managed to place myself in a lane was moving sufficiently more smoothly than the others. Not only was it quicker, the slow and steady was also far more relaxing than the stop/start madness.

Making progress and maintaining headway is about more than just overtaking everything in sight. It's about thinking. But then you already know that so I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make?

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Horse
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Horse » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:57 am

Strangely Brown wrote:
Horse wrote:See the bit where I listed 'congested' & '50 limits' & 'double white lines'. Good luck if you can 'make progress' under those circumstances! I'd like to know how :)


You can make extra progress by thinking. e.g.: A couple of weeks ago I was in very heavy traffic on the M25/M23 but, by watching far enough ahead and thinking about what was coming up, I managed to place myself in a lane was moving sufficiently more smoothly than the others. Not only was it quicker, the slow and steady was also far more relaxing than the stop/start madness.

Making progress and maintaining headway is about more than just overtaking everything in sight. It's about thinking. But then you already know that so I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make?


A fair question :)

So perhaps it's a fair question for me to ask back how much AD training takes place in the circumstances you detail, or even equate to anything close? And, to be fair, if all those other drivers thought the same way, you would have been no quicker ;)

My point, I suppose, is that much of the AD training content is, perhaps, irrelevant to many (if not most) current drivers.

Someone earlier mentioned getting wound up by queues, or similar. Queues are often unavoidable, so is that mental aspect something routinely covered in AD training? The nearest I can think of is recognising when there is unlikely to be an overtaking opportunity, so backing off.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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akirk
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby akirk » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:15 am

Horse wrote:A fair question :)

So perhaps it's a fair question for me to ask back how much AD training takes place in the circumstances you detail, or even equate to anything close? And, to be fair, if all those other drivers thought the same way, you would have been no quicker ;)

My point, I suppose, is that much of the AD training content is, perhaps, irrelevant to many (if not most) current drivers.

Someone earlier mentioned getting wound up by queues, or similar. Queues are often unavoidable, so is that mental aspect something routinely covered in AD training? The nearest I can think of is recognising when there is unlikely to be an overtaking opportunity, so backing off.


I think a lot of 'outside' people see AD as being just about making progress safely...
however it must surely be more accurate to see it as a number of elements which come together, but which equally can be used in other scenarios:
- car-control
- observation
- planning
- reading the context
- making choices
- etc.

understanding how these are then transferable is a big part of AD - so you might learn these skills at speed on an empty NSL, but still be able to apply them to traffic jams on the M25

Alasdair

Gareth
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Gareth » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:22 am

Horse wrote:See the bit where I listed 'congested' & '50 limits' & 'double white lines'. Good luck if you can 'make progress' under those circumstances! I'd like to know how :)

Not all roads are congested. In fact, I'd say, most roads aren't congested most of the time.

Not all country roads have 50 limits. Hard to make an overall assessment but, even in those counties where main thoroughfares are limited to 50 mph, most of the side-roads will still be NSL, so then it's down to a choice of routes made by road users. FWIW on a sampling of 230+ miles yesterday, I and some friends found many roads that were NSL.

Not all roads have double white line systems along their length and, of those that do, not many will have solid double whites for extended periods.

Your 'sample' does not make an argument when road users can choose.

Whether or not 'advanced' driving is helpful, well, yesterday I found the observation that advanced driving courses encourage helped me make better progress at a double mini-roundabout while the other road users at that junction were unsure or uncertain about how to proceed.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

Gareth
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Gareth » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:26 am

Horse wrote:so is that mental aspect something routinely covered in AD training? The nearest I can think of is recognising when there is unlikely to be an overtaking opportunity, so backing off.

Yes.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Horse
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Horse » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:33 pm

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:so is that mental aspect something routinely covered in AD training? The nearest I can think of is recognising when there is unlikely to be an overtaking opportunity, so backing off.

Yes.


Perhaps I should have qualified that with 'through IAM and RoSPA'. Care to give some examples? [I know Rc has a section on mental skills, but how are they covered during observed sessions?]

FWIW, there's a bike racing book about mental aspects:
https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Science-Roa ... 096504503X
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

crr003
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby crr003 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 pm

Horse wrote:
Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:so is that mental aspect something routinely covered in AD training? The nearest I can think of is recognising when there is unlikely to be an overtaking opportunity, so backing off.

Yes.


Perhaps I should have qualified that with 'through IAM and RoSPA'. Care to give some examples? [I know Rc has a section on mental skills, but how are they covered during observed sessions?]

FWIW, there's a bike racing book about mental aspects:
https://www.amazon.com/Soft-Science-Roa ... 096504503X

The first chapter in the IAM book, "Human factors", deals with this sort of stuff. It'll depend as usual on the Observer how much effort and emphasis is applied.
It's difficult to influence the beliefs that have been ingrained over decades in some cases. Little things like Associates views on BMW/Audi drivers; white van drivers; bikers.......

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Horse
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Re: 'Highest'?

Postby Horse » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:59 pm

crr003 wrote:The first chapter in the IAM book, "Human factors", deals with this sort of stuff. It'll depend as usual on the Observer how much effort and emphasis is applied.


I'll quite happily admit that when I was doing advanced training it wasn't something that was explicitly covered*, so I'm interested to hear how things have developed. However, I think that it's something that 'explicit' isn't the appropriate word to use, in the same way that (for riders) we would be including road-riding aspects, hazard perception/awareness/planning issues, etc., in off-road machine control sessions.

* That said, we were covering some perceptual issues from '89 onwards.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.


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