Hello all

A good place to post when you join - it is a good idea to post here first so that people know something about you, and you will get a nice welcome.
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Horse
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Re: Hello all

Postby Horse » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:49 pm

Thanks for clarifying :)
My own views. For better or worse :)

waremark
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Re: Hello all

Postby waremark » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:23 pm

StuBeeDoo wrote:Again with hindsight, had I been made aware that I was expected to drive the test as if I were a Police driver on a "shout" I'd have given it a go - but I thought that was for Masters candidates not Mr.Average-Advanced-Driver.

I don't suppose you mean that seriously, but neither for the Advanced Test nor for Masters are you expected to drive as if you are a policeman on a shout. There is no expectation that you will use the maximum available performance nor sacrifice smoothness, nor cause concern or inconvenience to any other road user, let alone push your own or the car's limits of safety.

StuBeeDoo
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Re: Hello all

Postby StuBeeDoo » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:22 am

waremark wrote:I don't suppose you mean that seriously
Yes, that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. :)

martine
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Re: Hello all

Postby martine » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:51 am

StuBeeDoo wrote:...So I would venture to suggest that if there's a real disconnect it's between what IAM appears to offer and what their Examiners expect to see Associates demonstrate on their test.

Remember you've only experienced 1 group and 1 main Observer...I believe my own group (Bristol Advanced Motorists) have a pretty good handle on what's required and about a third of our associates get a F1rst - so I guess that means we must be doing something right. :)

Again with hindsight, had I been made aware that I was expected to drive the test as if I were a Police driver on a "shout" I'd have given it a go - but I thought that was for Masters candidates not Mr.Average-Advanced-Driver.

Of course it depends on the degree of 'progress' or lack of it...if an associate often did 45-50mph on a clear National Speed Limit road, I would expect the examiner to mark this down and I wouldn't expect them to award a F1rst.

On the Masters test then 60mph is often needed to show the road and lack of hazards is being assessed - along with lots of other things of course. :geek:
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

hir
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Re: Hello all

Postby hir » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:24 am

StuBeeDoo wrote:So I would venture to suggest that if there's a real disconnect it's between what IAM appears to offer and what their Examiners expect to see Associates demonstrate on their test. Again with hindsight, had I been made aware that I was expected to drive the test as if I were a Police driver on a "shout" I'd have given it a go - but I thought that was for Masters candidates not Mr.Average-Advanced-Driver.


Waremark then asked a question regarding the above statement...

StuBeeDoo wrote:Yes, that [the final sentence] was a tongue-in-cheek comment. :)


No, I don't think it was tongue-in-cheek. If the last sentence is read within the context of your other postings one can only conclude that it was intended to be sardonic rather than tongue-in-cheek. In addition, it appears to me, that the intention was to exaggerate for effect what you incorrectly perceive to be a requirement of an IAM advanced driving test.

You highlight, quite correctly, the disconnect between the face that the IAM are currently trying to present to the whole wide world as being a "road safety organisation making our roads safer" and at the same time playing down, or perhaps not playing up, the IAM's historical role of raising the standard of civilian driving. Historically, the IAM's purpose in life has been to raise civilian driving to the level of skill (excluding blue light and speed exemptions, obviously) expected of a police response driver [which is not the same level required of a police advanced driver]. But, that is not the same thing as expecting IAM members to to be driving around as though they're on a "shout". It's the skill level that matters.

The "speed" aspect that you focus on in your first post is a very small aspect of the IAM course. Were the 4 S's explained to you? If not, they are, in order of priority: SAFE, Safety overrides all other considerations; SYSTEMATIC, the driver must use the System Of Car Control (IPSGA) at all times; SMOOTH, the drive must be smooth, not chauffeur smooth, but the car must be balanced and settled at all times [definitely NOT throwing your passengers around the car for an extra 5mph!], and finally SPARKLE, (originally referred to as SPEED, but no longer), which is generally interpreted as being alert to opportunities to get up to the permitted speed limit, where SAFE to do so. Driving with a bit of purpose to the drive not just pootling along with your brain in neutral.

I don't know, because I wasn't there, but as an IAM National Observer having dealt with many dozens of associates over a number of decades might I suggest that your avowed "lack of passion, lack of enthusiasm for driving and not being bothered about accelerating to the prevailing speed limit" was causative of your observer being a bit laid back in his approach to the way in which he delivered your course.

Triquet
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Re: Hello all

Postby Triquet » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:00 pm

As I wrote somewhere up this thread I have a great deal of sympathy for the OP. My initial failure was due to a lack of understanding (and/or) explanation about what the IAM's aims and objectives were, and the meaning behind some of the reserved words and phraseology that we tend to take for granted. I still have reservations about some of the more pedantic attitudes to the game and am a firm believer in output rather than input. After all it ultimately boils down to Triquet's Driving manual which says "concentrate, keep your eyes open, and if you're going to drive don't do it rubbish".

Oh, and for word of the week: what does "spirited" mean?

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Horse
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Re: Hello all

Postby Horse » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm

Triquet wrote: Oh, and for word of the week: what does "spirited" mean?


:)

"Have a few wee drams before setting off"?
My own views. For better or worse :)

Gareth
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Re: Hello all

Postby Gareth » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Triquet wrote:and for word of the week: what does "spirited" mean?

In this context I would say fully engaged with the activity being undertaken, constantly alert for changes in the driving environment and, as a result, linking speed to vision better than the average driver.

StuBeeDoo, others in this thread have put it far better than I can manage - the expectation of progress is for you to demonstrate that you drive safely when under pressure, for the duration of a test. The test is a relatively short period so it shouldn't be seen as an impossibly difficult requirement.

In the test, pressure comes from being judged; in real-life it is most likely to come from needing to be somewhere by a certain time. Examples might include travelling for a job interview, wanting to catch a particular train, or taking a family member to A&E at the nearest hospital.

Despite the pressure, progress must be subordinate to safe.

The test is to demonstrate a level of skill; it isn't an exhortation to make the same level of progress in all your driving. It's just that if you need to, then you can do it safely.

It's worth bearing in mind that a candidate for a DVSA driving test is expected to drive up to the speed limit where it is safe to do so, and to go appropriately slower where it is necessary.

It could be said that the difference between this level of skill and that of someone passing the IAM test is in the quality of observation that permits the driver to make more accurate assessments of the driving environment, resulting in them being better at driving up to the speed limit where it is safe, and more appreciative of the need to go slower where the hazard density is high.

You mentioned a country road; in my experience the hazard density along a country road varies continuously. In some sections you can go quite quickly in perfect safety, while in others you need to go very slow to maintain the same level of safety. In this context, your observations tell you where you can speed up and where you need to slow down.

As skill increases, it is easier to smoothly effect these changes in pace. Bends are similar; if your judgement is good and you have slowed appropriately before a bend, you can smoothly accelerate through the bend, gently at first just to maintain your safe speed, then increasing as the view extends and you can see there are no other hazards.

Some of the enthusiasm in this discussion forum is for developing the skills necessary to do this while not exceeding our capabilities, and doing so with increasing precision.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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AndyP
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Location: Bath/Bristol

Re: Hello all

Postby AndyP » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:42 pm

someone deliberately licking the flap of their performance envelope.
Thanks Oh how I loved that comment horse. Still smiling.
ha ha. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


FYI
:racing: :evil: :twisted: :roll:
I licked it. sucked it, nibbled it off, chewed it, ate the whole envelope, then spat it back out and asked for an A4 manilla.
a bakers dozen or so of them to take me on even more to explore.

:help:

Cheers Andy
It is not WHAT you drive, BUT:-- the WAY that you drive it.
It is not HOW fast you drive, BUT:-- HOW you drive fast.

Cheers Andy

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AndyP
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Re: Hello all

Postby AndyP » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:56 pm

:soap:

From my Examiner's perspective I 'can' 'could' be a bit forgiving .
However,
During the latest long round of road repairs/closures, part of my devious cross country route are lost and I am stuck with a longish incline uphill on the outskirts of Bristol, A420, TOG hill. Sorry I need it to get to a lovely 60 mph empty no access country road, a back way to the M4.

During my previous incarnation a ton plus on response or training would have been no problem. :racing: On Masters 50 t0 60 no problem.
If I may say that 9 out of 10 Advanced test drivers struggle to go more than 45 after changing up to 5/6/7th.

:headbang: WE then became the hazard being overtaken by local CEMEX quarry Lorries umpteen cars and more recently an elderly lady in a HONDA Jazz [fair does I expect she was well trained] [my MUM bless her] :car: :gear:

I am sure I know the observer would not have put up with that. So it was all on the day then.

I have also been known to contravene that Basic Jockey club rule of:-
'Excessive use of the whip' if you get my drift.
It is not WHAT you drive, BUT:-- the WAY that you drive it.
It is not HOW fast you drive, BUT:-- HOW you drive fast.

Cheers Andy


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