M1 Minibus "Accident"

Articles of interest to the AD community, currently in the news.
Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Matt1962 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:33 pm

Horse wrote:So do you mean accept short term safety deterioration in anticipation of safety gain from potentially improved direction finding? You could, of course, achieve gain-gain by stopping to make the call, couldn't you?


No... and possibly yes. Before accepting (or making) a call, and during that call you need to make sure that safety is maintained. Stopping might be the sensible option, but might not be possible or necessary (slow moving traffic on a motorway for example).
However driving is never completely without risk, and it is quite possible that leaving a major road to stop somewhere might increase your risk more than accepting a simple call. Think, for example, of leaving a clear and straight French autoroute and heading on to a rural road via tollbooths etc. to make that call.

Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Matt1962 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:40 pm

Horse wrote:
Matt1962 wrote:
Horse wrote:Perhaps using a phone while driving could have a similar challenge: will my driving deteriorate or improve? If deteriorate, a. how will you tell; b. what's acceptable; c. how will you objectively monitor it?


Incidentally that 'deterioration' might in certain circumstances actually be planned to engineer safety into accepting the call (loss of speed, increased following distance etc.).


If you always do that, then that's the mitigation I was asking about. How do you determine the necessary amount?

By deterioration, I meant aspects such as reaction time, not the mitigation.


I don't think this is all that difficult. After all we make allowances for weather conditions, different types of vehicle etc. Obviously judgement is needed, and there are many circumstances in which taking or making the call in the first place is unacceptable. Many types of call are also unacceptable whilst driving.

User avatar
Strangely Brown
Posts: 578
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Sussex

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Strangely Brown » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:21 pm

The problem with being distracted and missing important things is that you cannot possibly know what or how much you have missed because, well, you missed it. From there on it all gets a bit Rumsdfeldian. You might think that you didn't miss anything, but you have no way of knowing and, while you may be able to check your dashcam footage, there are no do-overs in real life. To be distracted as part of the normal course of living is one thing, but to go out of your way to be deliberately and knowingly distracted on the road is quite something else.

User avatar
Horse
Posts: 1982
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:22 pm

Matt1962 wrote:I don't think this is all that difficult. After all we make allowances for weather conditions, different types of vehicle etc. .


Fair point, we can know about extended braking distances or restricted visibility, for examples which apply to both.

What are the mitigations that must be applied for calls? And how do you know when to 'revert', given that research a few years ago (comparing phone records against insurance data) showed that the effect of a call can persist up to 20 minutes after it ends?
My own views. For better or worse :)

Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Matt1962 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:24 pm

Horse wrote:
Matt1962 wrote:I don't think this is all that difficult. After all we make allowances for weather conditions, different types of vehicle etc. .


Fair point, we can know about extended braking distances or restricted visibility, for examples which apply to both.

What are the mitigations that must be applied for calls? And how do you know when to 'revert', given that research a few years ago (comparing phone records against insurance data) showed that the effect of a call can persist up to 20 minutes after it ends?


I know some people who refuse to take or make any calls whilst driving, which is fair enough; but having used radio transmitters in farm vehicles going back many years I tend to take a more pragmatic view. However I restrict the (much simpler to use hands-free) technology to much the same sort of simple messages - directions, time of arrival etc. I make sure that anyone speaking to me knows I am driving and I refuse to get into any sort of complex discussion. I also leave calls unanswered if I am not comfortable with the driving situation I am in. Other than that, I make a conscious decision to increase following distance etc. Whilst talking.
I can see that the effects of a heated argument or complex discussion might persist for 20 minutes, but I doubt that this is limited to phone calls on the move...

User avatar
jont-
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:12 am
Location: Flatlands

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby jont- » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:28 pm

Matt1962 wrote:[I also leave calls unanswered if I am not comfortable with the driving situation I am in. Other than that, I make a conscious decision to increase following distance etc. Whilst talking.

Yes, I often witness this when someone swerves left and slows down on the motorway, then you notice they're on the phone :roll:

The problem is when you start the call when things are in a good place, but don't notice them deteriorating because you're on the phone.

Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Matt1962 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

jont- wrote:
Matt1962 wrote:[I also leave calls unanswered if I am not comfortable with the driving situation I am in. Other than that, I make a conscious decision to increase following distance etc. Whilst talking.

Yes, I often witness this when someone swerves left and slows down on the motorway, then you notice they're on the phone :roll:

The problem is when you start the call when things are in a good place, but don't notice them deteriorating because you're on the phone.


‘Swerve’ is emotive but there may well be circumstances in which moving to the left and slowing down is a safe and sensible thing to do before accepting a call. As in the previous discussion on this subject I have a hard time relating the calls I have with those where people lose track of their situation. ‘I’ll be there in 20 minutes’ doesn’t give much time for conditions to deteriorate.
I have to say that having used mobile communications for nearly 40 years (see my previous posts) I don’t think I have left a trail of devastation around me because of that.

User avatar
jont-
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:12 am
Location: Flatlands

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby jont- » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:05 am

Matt1962 wrote: I have to say that having used mobile communications for nearly 40 years (see my previous posts) I don’t think I have left a trail of devastation around me because of that.

But if you were on the phone, are you sure you would have noticed? :twisted:

waremark
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:29 am

Strangely Brown wrote:To be distracted as part of the normal course of living is one thing, but to go out of your way to be deliberately and knowingly distracted on the road is quite something else.


I do that every time I drive, whether by talking to a passenger, listening to the radio, operating the controls of the car, or talking on the phone. Including when having my driving assessed, I always chat.

I cannot argue against the following as good advice, but nor can I claim to comply. It comes from the superb High Performance Course syllabus, available from

http://www.high-performance-course.com/syllabus

"The driver should show the ability to manage levels of concentration and awareness
according to the prevailing risks, and not to be distracted by focusing attention on
factors that are not relevant to immediate and potential hazards."

Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Matt1962 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:48 pm

waremark wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:To be distracted as part of the normal course of living is one thing, but to go out of your way to be deliberately and knowingly distracted on the road is quite something else.


I do that every time I drive, whether by talking to a passenger, listening to the radio, operating the controls of the car, or talking on the phone. Including when having my driving assessed, I always chat.

I cannot argue against the following as good advice, but nor can I claim to comply. It comes from the superb High Performance Course syllabus, available from

http://www.high-performance-course.com/syllabus

"The driver should show the ability to manage levels of concentration and awareness
according to the prevailing risks, and not to be distracted by focusing attention on
factors that are not relevant to immediate and potential hazards."


Excellent comments. I agree completely. My ROADAR assessor (serving traffic officer) has chatted amiably through all the tri-ennial re-tests I have taken as well, which I imagine is partially to test ability to focus on the important things.
I think that by demonising mobile phone usage we risk missing the real problem of lack of focus and thought about driving behaviour - long mobile phone conversations are a symptom of this, not the cause.


Return to “In The News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests