So how do you cope with these crossings?

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ancient
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby ancient » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:17 am

Sorry about the links - they worked when I used them yesterday (and insanity has posted the new link now).
GTR1400MAN wrote:I just 'drove' it using StreetView and didn't even notice it. Had to turn round and go back to find it!

How on earth did that get past any safety review?

Agreed, but so many do :evil:
jont- wrote:In the same way that I think people in favour of "surface dressing" as a suitable alternative to resurfacing should be shot blasted by lorries driving along surface dressed roads at NSL speeds, maybe we should start requiring those implemented ludicrous cycle schemes to use them before signing off?

At the same time though - does a facility existing abrogate responsibility from a cyclist deciding that it's safe to use? It might be their right, but to exert that right in the face of ever falling driving standards, and where it's fairly obvious who's going to come off worse in an accident, what do they really hope to achieve by asserting their right to use such roads/facilities?

The road is a direct route: Some people need to get from A to B by bicycle. This is a designated facility, apparently designed to allow them to do so. without mixing with motor traffic. Once they get to this crossing, what else would you expect them to do but try to use it? Perhaps cycle up the slip road in the live lane instead? Or turn back?
Surely motorists should be prepared to share the road with those legally entitled to use it?
Horse wrote:
jont- wrote: implemented ludicrous cycle schemes to use them before signing off?

At the same time though - does a facility existing abrogate responsibility from a cyclist deciding that it's safe to use? It might be their right, but to exert that right in the face of ever falling driving standards, and where it's fairly obvious who's going to come off worse in an accident, what do they really hope to achieve by asserting their right to use such roads/facilities?


So, at that junction, what's the unludicrous, affordable, alternative?

Since the cycle lane goes up to the roundabout, why on earth does it need to cross the slip first anyway?

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Horse
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Horse » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:37 am

ancient wrote:
Horse wrote:
jont- wrote: implemented ludicrous cycle schemes to use them before signing off?

At the same time though - does a facility existing abrogate responsibility from a cyclist deciding that it's safe to use? It might be their right, but to exert that right in the face of ever falling driving standards, and where it's fairly obvious who's going to come off worse in an accident, what do they really hope to achieve by asserting their right to use such roads/facilities?


So, at that junction, what's the unludicrous, affordable, alternative?

Since the cycle lane goes up to the roundabout, why on earth does it need to cross the slip first anyway?


I can think of one instance of a similar crossover where there is no roundabout - it's a major road splitting.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.43581 ... 6656?hl=en

Yup, where the red van is parked!
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jont-
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby jont- » Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:46 am

ancient wrote:Surely motorists should be prepared to share the road with those legally entitled to use it?

/dons flame suit.
Maybe it's time we removed that entitlement. We seem happy enough to remove entitlements from the majority of motorists due to the antics of a small minority.

The UK population is growing and the roads are getting busier. Roads are needed by the majority of the population to get by motorised vehicle from A-B, or transport our goods. Just because you're still living in the 1800s with respect to transport, don't expect the rest of the country to revolve around you.

(City centres - fine, pedestrianise them and ban cars, but rural/trunk roads - arguably any road with a speed limit above 40mph - cyclists have no place and probably cause more congestion and additional pollution (from vehicles slowing/accelerating to pass them) than they will ever save).

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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Gareth » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:47 am

ancient wrote:Surely motorists should be prepared to share the road with those legally entitled to use it?

The purpose of grade-separated junctions is to split different categories of road user in order to enhance safety for all, notwithstanding that it has been subverted in this case. Do you think this approach is wrong?
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

ancient
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby ancient » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:18 am

I think that those bringing the greatest potential danger should be responsible for mitigating that danger. Where separate facilities are provided they should be properly designed and audited. Farcilities such as this increase the danger. As per my original question Gareth: How would you cope with this? If someone was using the crossing provided would you be able to avoid them? If not, would you blame them for trying to use the road to get from A to B.

Jont: You appear to be the one stuck with an outmoded understanding of modern transport needs, basically the 1960s dream no longer works: Individual motor vehicles, usually single occupancy have (unfortunately - I like driving!) no sustainable future as the roads get more crowded. Platooning may be a way to utilise them for a while longer, but with environmental and health pressures added to the mix, different solutions are going to have to be found.

martine
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby martine » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:26 pm

TheInsanity1234 wrote:...perhaps by either simply putting a zebra down and signs up to highlight the presence of the crossing...

I don't believe zebra crossings are allowed on 70 or even 60mph roads.

It is indeed a crazy layout but at least the view for a cyclist waiting to cross doesn't look too bad and since they don't have any priority, I'd like to think they would be careful.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Horse
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Horse » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:35 pm

ancient wrote:There's a crossing there, an uncontrolled one: https://goo.gl/maps/32j1hCqG5KB2

It's 80m away at this point , and you are travelling a the appropriate speed for the dual carriageway, not slowing before the off-slip so as to not invite a heavy (or indeed any vehicle) up your tail.
The uncontrolled crossing has just come into sight: See it? Anyone crossing? You have less than three seconds to react (and if you try to stop you are likely to overshoot by a few metres!).


I suppose the true, honest, answer (IMO) is that most drivers take little or no notice of any signs and will only react to what they see.

FWIW, I counted the white line markings (about 26) from the Google car location to the crossing - so that's 26 x 9m = roughly 230m - well in excess of the H Code 70mph stopping distance of 96m. Of that 230m, about 160m is from the triangular warning sign to the crossing location. How did you get the 80m distance from Google car to crossing?
Last edited by Mr Cholmondeley-Warner on Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Horse
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Horse » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:36 pm

ancient wrote:There's a crossing there, an uncontrolled one: https://goo.gl/maps/32j1hCqG5KB2

It's 80m away at this point , and you are travelling a the appropriate speed for the dual carriageway, not slowing before the off-slip so as to not invite a heavy (or indeed any vehicle) up your tail.
The uncontrolled crossing has just come into sight: See it? Anyone crossing? You have less than three seconds to react (and if you try to stop you are likely to overshoot by a few metres!).


I suppose the true, honest, answer (IMO) is that most drivers take little or no notice of any signs and will only react to what they see.

FWIW, I counted the white line markings (about 26) from the Google car location to the crossing - so that's 26 x 9m = roughly 230m - well in excess of the H Code 70mph stopping distance of 96m. Of that 230m, about 160m is from the triangular warning sign to the crossing location. How did you get the 80m distance from Google car to crossing?
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Gareth » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:49 pm

Horse wrote:about 160m is from the triangular warning sign to the crossing location.

The triangular warning sign isn't conventionally used to indicate that cyclists are crossing. I don't see an explicit sign to warn of a crossing; was there one further back on the main carriageway?
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Horse
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Re: So how do you cope with these crossings?

Postby Horse » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:56 pm

Gareth wrote:
Horse wrote:about 160m is from the triangular warning sign to the crossing location.

The triangular warning sign isn't conventionally used to indicate that cyclists are crossing. I don't see an explicit sign to warn of a crossing; was there one further back on the main carriageway?


'Drive' forward, it's just into the slip road, a few metres after the green directions sign.
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