M1 Minibus "Accident"

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Horse
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:07 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:... and ... are you suggesting I should be permanently aware of what they have on their site?


Just noting that the BBC consider it of national interest, not local, SE, only.
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akirk
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby akirk » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:59 pm

angus wrote:So the court case has ended, with one lorry driver being convicted (rightly) and the other cleared (surprisingly in my opinion).

But no mention has been made of what could be the contributory negligence by the minibus driver. From the traffic camera footage, traffic was light at the time and he should have been able to easily and safely ovetake the lorry, so why did he stop behind the lorry?


I think only cleared of death by dangerous driving
he has already pleaded guilty to death by careless driving
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby ancient » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:49 am

akirk wrote:
angus wrote:So the court case has ended, with one lorry driver being convicted (rightly) and the other cleared (surprisingly in my opinion).

But no mention has been made of what could be the contributory negligence by the minibus driver. From the traffic camera footage, traffic was light at the time and he should have been able to easily and safely ovetake the lorry, so why did he stop behind the lorry?


I think only cleared of death by dangerous driving
he has already pleaded guilty to death by careless driving
Alasdair

So his driving totally unaware of what was in front of him, concentrating instead on his 'phone conversation was a standard of driving below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver ...






But not far below :twisted:

I can only comment that the expectations of a "competent and careful driver" are too damned low for any such to be allowed to drive anything bigger than
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:11 am

ancient wrote: So his driving totally unaware of what was in front of him, concentrating instead on his 'phone conversation was a standard of driving below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver ...

But not far below :twisted:


I think it's a horrible precedent, not to do with the carnage that ensued, but that it's 'only' careless . . .

angus wrote: But no mention has been made of what could be the contributory negligence by the minibus driver.


Makes no odds, does it really - what if it had been a queue formed for any other reason?
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waremark
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby waremark » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:35 am

Death by careless is a very serious offence punishable by lengthy imprisonment. I don't expect a long hands free conversation to be any more distracting than a conversation with a passenger, notwithstanding the research on this subject. Indeed, it is quite likely an aid to wakefulness.

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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Gareth » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:16 am

ancient wrote:So his driving totally unaware of what was in front of him, concentrating instead on his 'phone conversation was a standard of driving below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver ...

I'm wondering if 'careless' because using a hands-free isn't illegal but he wasn't taking enough care, whereas 'dangerous' might be appropriate to illegal actions, and an example might be driving the wrong way on a motorway?

Anyway, 'death by' triggers a more significant sentence, whether 'careless' or 'dangerous'.

I'm also wondering about the eight counts; as far as I can see it was only the one 'careless' action, one crash. Not sure how eight counts here isn't actually the same as one count would be in a place where logic ruled.
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby martine » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:16 am

waremark wrote:...I don't expect a long hands free conversation to be any more distracting than a conversation with a passenger, notwithstanding the research on this subject....

Not quite sure what you're saying. The research shows it is more distracting than conversing with a passenger.

There are 2 possible reasons for this (yet to be confirmed):
  • voice quality is measurably worse (even on posh phones) making the brain work harder
  • passengers tend to naturally pause the conversation if the driver is faced with a tricky situation
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Gareth » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:21 am

martine wrote:There are 2 possible reasons for this (yet to be confirmed):
  • voice quality is measurably worse (even on posh phones) making the brain work harder
  • passengers tend to naturally pause the conversation if the driver is faced with a tricky situation

The second conjecture is rarely borne out in my experience.

I think there is a qualitative difference between holding a conversation with a person next to you versus a the other end of a phone. I remember how, at certain point in the progression of Alzheimer's, someone I knew couldn't manage an ordinary phone conversation but still made good sense when talking face to face. It's as if there is an extra level of abstraction in a phone conversation that requires more mental effort.
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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby akirk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:47 am

isn't dangerous driving deliberate and careless - a lack of care...
subtle, but substantial difference

Alasdair

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Re: M1 Minibus "Accident"

Postby Horse » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:23 pm

martine wrote:
waremark wrote:...I don't expect a long hands free conversation to be any more distracting than a conversation with a passenger, notwithstanding the research on this subject....

Not quite sure what you're saying. The research shows it is more distracting than conversing with a passenger.

There are 2 possible reasons for this (yet to be confirmed):
  • voice quality is measurably worse (even on posh phones) making the brain work harder
  • passengers tend to naturally pause the conversation if the driver is faced with a tricky situation


I understand that there are four reasons. The two you have given, plus [obv.] two more. I can only remember one of them, that you will tend to visualise the person - taking attention away from driving.

PS What does
waremark wrote: notwithstanding the research
mean, that you don't agree, or don't believe it?
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