Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:52 pm

KevT wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
Is Kevin still with us, or did he die of boredom weeks ago?


Sorry for not joining in with this thread but I've been rather busy of late bus some of this stuff has been going straight over my head.

I have been following the comments but at the moment the masters course has been put on the back burner as I have recently been undertaking the observer training course and it was suggested by my masters assessor that maybe I should get that out of the way and then use that training to build up to the masters. At least I get that training for free then go into the masters course more knowledgeable (hopefully). Even after the masters assessment, I was still getting picked up on little things that shouldn't have happened whilst out on the observers demo drive.

After Tuesdays training session all trainees were told that we are now ready to take on associates so now just waiting for things to develop.
Today, I managed to talk a friend who used to be a driving instructor into letting me assess him on a half hour run around some of our rural roads and he seamed surprised when I gave him more 2s than 1s but after pointing out the mistakes and the correct way of doing things then he was quite happy with it and in his honest opinion he was happy with the way the session was conducted.

Now Getting back to the masters, I will probably start the course in the new year when all the observer stuff has sunk in.


Driving instructors can tend to drive like learners.

Nigel.

KevT
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Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby KevT » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:28 pm

Driving instructors can tend to drive like learners.


Now that quote might just set off another debate. Looking forward to that one. :swords:

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Horse
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:01 pm

fungus wrote:Driving instructors can tend to drive like learners.


Interesting point; do you mean pre-test? If so, what's the crash record of learners?
My own views. For better or worse :)

fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 pm

I was refering to a comment made by my examiner when I took my IAM test ten years ago, that most ADIs he'd examined drove like learners in as much they didn't make progress where appropriate. Thankfully I wasn't one of them. As to the crash rate for learners, I don't have a clue.

Nigel.

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Horse
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Although it's interesting to read what DVSA say test-standard drivers need to be able to do. I wonder how it varies from the IAM's descriptions?

18: Use of speed
Expected outcome/ competence
Safe and reasonable progress should be made along the road bearing in mind the road, a traffic and weather conditions and the road signs and speed limits.

The vehicle should be able to stop safely, well within the distance you can see to be clear.

Assessment Criteria - (example)Driving Fault
Drove too fast for the prevailing road and / or traffic conditions for a short period.

Serious Fault
Going too fast for the prevailing road and / or traffic conditions, exceeding speed limits.

Dangerous Fault
Any situation brought about driving far too fast that resulted in actual danger to the examiner, candidate, and the general public or property.

Action (ETA) may be required to avoid a legal requirement being breached. Discretion must obviously be exercised in the degree to be considered acceptable and the tolerance threshold over any speed limit must be quite small.

Item 19: Following distance
Expected outcome/ competence
The vehicle must always be a safe distance between yourself and other vehicles.
On wet or slippery roads it takes much longer to stop.
When the vehicle has stopped in traffic queues, sufficient space should be left to pull out if the vehicle in front has problems.

Assessment Criteria - (example)Driving Fault
Did not maintain the full separation distance required.

Serious Fault
Drove too close to the vehicle ahead, where the separation distance left little margin for error.

Dangerous Fault
Any situation brought about by dangerously driving too close to the car in front that resulted in actual danger to the examiner, candidate, and the general public or property.

Action (ETA) should be taken as necessary to increase separation distance and so avoid the possibility of a collision.

Item 20: Progress Appropriate Speed Undue Hesitation

Expected outcome/ competence
Candidates should drive at a safe and appropriate speed for the prevailing road and traffic conditions. Speed limits are not target speeds and there will be occasions where candidates need to reduce their speed to deal safely with situations such as narrow residential streets or busy high streets; this should not be considered as a fault.

Assessment Criteria - (example = undue hesitation)Driving Fault
Lack of judgement, not proceeding when it is safe and correct to do so.

Serious Fault
Stopping and waiting when it is safe and reasonable to proceed.

Dangerous Fault
It is unlikely that undue hesitancy could become dangerous in itself unless it was felt that this created situations that encouraged other road users to put themselves at risk.
Last edited by Mr Cholmondeley-Warner on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fix tags
My own views. For better or worse :)

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:12 am

fungus wrote:I was refering to a comment made by my examiner when I took my IAM test ten years ago, that most ADIs he'd examined drove like learners in as much they didn't make progress where appropriate.


One of the most difficult associates I ever had was an ADI. In town an suburban environments he was fine. The problem was that it was almost impossible to get him to go over 40 in NSL.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:39 am

IME they do drive like learners. Sticking rigidly to rules (e.g. staying in lane, signalling for everything), but with little thought or planning. Vehicle sympathy tends to be low (no rev-matching, excessively high gears for "eco"), and so on. Progress tends to be missing too (in all respects, not outright speed)
Nick

crr003
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby crr003 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:51 am

Can an admin break this out into an ADI bashing thread please............

fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:56 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:IME they do drive like learners. Sticking rigidly to rules (e.g. staying in lane, signalling for everything), but with little thought or planning. Vehicle sympathy tends to be low (no rev-matching, excessively high gears for "eco"), and so on. Progress tends to be missing too (in all respects, not outright speed)


Couldn't agree more.

Not bashing fellow ADIs, but Nicks comments pretty much sum up many ADIs, but not all. I have never had a pupil who has been with another ADI who has been taught rev matching even though Driving the Essential Skills does say that "You may need to maintain light pressure on the accelerator when changing down to achieve a smooth gear change." They are pleasantly surprised at the difference it makes to their gear changing, and by how easy it is.

I have just taken over a pupil from another instructor. He has been driving a VW Beetle TDi. Doesn't use any gas when moving off, with the consequence that he stalled my petrol 1.4 Fiesta. He had been allowed to move off by just lifting the clutch, then when the car was moving use some gas. He has been driving for about a year apparently. Another thing that I've found is that many hold on to first gear too long because they don't use enough gas, which make negotiating a roundabout from a standstill jerky in first gear.

Rant over,
Nigel.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 am

OTOH, sensing the amount of revs required for a particular car, and not using any more than needed, is the hallmark of the advanced, and graceful driver :) This was demonstrated to me by the owner of a 993C2 (owner of perhaps the best gearchange technique of any of my regular co-drivers), reversing up a hill using no throttle (and not masses of clutch slip, either).

Nigel - not intending to bash ADIs. It's what they teach, so it's how they drive. My first RoSPA associate was an ADI coach (he coached pupils through parts 2 and 3) and he drove like that. He learned very fast though. He's now (as far as I know, still) a civilian instructor for the cops.

The change from 1st to 2nd (and back again if on the move) is the hardest one in the box. More than any other, it pays to t.a.k.e....y.o.u.r....t.i.m.e....
Nick


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