'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Topics relating to Advanced Riding on bikes
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Horse
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'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:12 pm

Interesting views, not the least for the way it seems several riders have:
- Got the wrong end of the stick in the first place
- Misinterpreted / applied incorrectly what they 'knew'
- Ended up in court

https://www.whitedalton.co.uk/motorbike ... ed-riding/
My own views. For better or worse :)

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akirk
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby akirk » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:39 pm

Good article - improving your driving makes you more capable which allows you two choices:
- the same type of driving / riding, with a higher level of contingency (more observation / more aware / better sight lines / etc.)
- more 'advanced' driving (more speed / etc.) with the same level of contingency...

the issue in court is that the first is acceptable - the second is not, because a layman would not understand how you could still keep the same safety margin but e.g. make more progress - they think of themselves in that situation - realise that had they been doing that speed / that overtake, they couldn't have coped, so assume that the 'advanced' person couldn't either...

in reality I suspect that most of those who do further training do so to allow more progress - i.e. the second option - esp. those who may then end up in court - so in reality they are riding or driving at a higher level - but that doesn't mean any greater a safety margin than had they been going at a lower level - though it should still mean more safety margin than a non-trained person pushing at the higher level

there is also the very present danger that doing any form of advanced driving gives you the 'I am a God' factor which may mean that someone takes more risk - core to advanced driving is safety and managing down risk, but for some it is all about handling / technique / speed... I suspect that those on here who have a longer term interest are probably safer drivers, but some who take IAM and then move away are not...

Alasdair

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Horse
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:30 pm

akirk wrote: . . . in reality I suspect that most of those who do further training do so to allow more progress . . . there is also the very present danger that doing any form of advanced driving gives you the 'I am a God' factor


Yes indeed. How often you see articles etc. which state how fast the police are, how they're the best in the world, etc., all because of Roadcraft training. Yes, many weeks of it, for a few people, in a profession which is all based around enforcement of laws - rather than a few hours, with the trainees being random people (albeit often self-selecting 'safer' minded).
My own views. For better or worse :)

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:28 pm

Interesting. Do you suppose Police officers are perceived as "arrogant" in court, because of their advanced training, too?
Nick

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Horse
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:32 pm

A quick Google says:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... ed-be.html

May not answer exactly your question . . .
My own views. For better or worse :)

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:37 pm

Not really. Was more of a rhetorical question really. Probably the blogger the quote came from would have a better view.
Nick

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby GTR1400MAN » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:11 pm

Anticipation. Mindset. Attitude.
Mike Roberts

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jont-
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby jont- » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:45 am

I've expected witnesses to think I'm drunk when I'm merely dodging potholes and sunken drains :evil:

As for court, I thought we were supposed to get a jury of our peers, so really it shouldn't be a jury of anyone unless they're also advanced trained.

It's an interesting precedent for autonomous cars that "better" isn't good enough (if we're being sold on the idea that they are "better" than human drivers but can still be fallible).

hir
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby hir » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:53 am

jont- wrote:
As for court, I thought we were supposed to get a jury of our peers, so really it shouldn't be a jury of anyone unless they're also advanced trained.



It's worse than that. It's magistrates who know nothing about driving apart from shock, horror, speed dangerous!!! :o :o :o

:lol: :lol: :lol: (it's not really a laughing matter, ed).

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Horse
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Re: 'Advanced' - a solicitor writes

Postby Horse » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:37 pm

jont- wrote: As for court, I thought we were supposed to get a jury of our peers, so really it shouldn't be a jury of anyone unless they're also advanced trained.


Good Gods no! Could you imagine, based what it's like on here "Blah blah BGOL blah blah rotational blah blah" - cost a fortune in legal bills . . .

jont- wrote:It's an interesting precedent for autonomous cars that "better" isn't good enough (if we're being sold on the idea that they are "better" than human drivers but can still be fallible).


To be fair, the article is 'better but did it wrong' [eg maintaining offside cornering position in the face of oncoming traffic].

Autonomous/automated cars will only 'learn' and use the rules they're given. Currently they may struggle with some aspects [understatement?].

For example: try to explain in simple AV friendly terms, the difference between a safe following distance and the 'close up / contact' pre-overtaking position ;) You're getting into the realms of teaching AVs to judge and balance risk - and researchers are working on that (I saw a video from MIT CSAIL on exactly that sort of thing, for an AV in lane 1 with a vehicle emerging from an on-slip, with the AV having to decide whether to slow to make space or accept a shorter than ideal gap in L2).
My own views. For better or worse :)


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