Life sentences

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fungus
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:26 pm
Location: Dorset

Re: Life sentences

Postby fungus » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:06 pm

Horse wrote:
titian wrote: School - no respect or fear of authority, no one "in authority" can touch me but if they do I'll ensure that they lose their job


I suspect you may not know quite how bad that can be. Heard in the playground one morning: "You do what you like, they can't touch you".

That was a parent, dropping off their 7 yr old . . .

[And it's not true, they can touch 'you' and use reasonable restraint etc.]


When I was a kid I didn't go home complaining that I'd been punished at school, because I would recieve more punishment from my father for getting into trouble in the first place. :help: He certainly wouldn't go to the school and complain.

Nigel.

sussex2
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:43 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby sussex2 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:47 am

It's no good harking back to the 'Good old Days' which I suspect, rather know, where not quite as good as they may seem to have been.
Let's think about road deaths in the 1970s? What were they? 6 or 7 thousand? With less vehicles than now.
The improvement isn't all down to better design of vehicles. It must follow that better attitude has helped greatly, if not more so.
I don't say it is all rosy, not by a long chalk, but it is better.
The penalties for poor driving, dangerous driving, have been too low for a long time.
We also have a government somewhat desperate for popular approval.

User avatar
AndyP
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:38 am
Location: Bath/Bristol

Re: Life sentences

Postby AndyP » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:33 am

sussex2 wrote:I think the idea of more traffic police is a fanciful notion, it isn't going to happen.


YES it is
NO it isnt.

BUT I really love the idea and sentiment though.
The numbers of RMP's are at an all time low and locally after a huge honeymoon in the old CUBA [County used to be known as AVON] Collisions [and big ones] too seem to be going up.
It is not WHAT you drive, BUT:-- the WAY that you drive it.
It is not HOW fast you drive, BUT:-- HOW you drive fast.

Cheers Andy

waremark
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby waremark » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:39 pm

sussex2 wrote:The penalties for poor driving, dangerous driving, have been too low for a long time.
We also have a government somewhat desperate for popular approval.

A 14 year gaol sentence is a pretty significant (life destroying) penalty. Personally, I would prefer to be the victim of the fatal crash than to be sentenced to 14 years.

I consider that the 5 year max sentence for causing death by careless is exceptionally harsh - every driver I know is careless sometimes, if the driving is not bad enough to meet the dangerous category I don't think a prison sentence is appropriate.

sussex2
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:43 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby sussex2 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:14 am

waremark wrote:
sussex2 wrote:The penalties for poor driving, dangerous driving, have been too low for a long time.
We also have a government somewhat desperate for popular approval.

A 14 year gaol sentence is a pretty significant (life destroying) penalty. Personally, I would prefer to be the victim of the fatal crash than to be sentenced to 14 years.

I consider that the 5 year max sentence for causing death by careless is exceptionally harsh - every driver I know is careless sometimes, if the driving is not bad enough to meet the dangerous category I don't think a prison sentence is appropriate.


I would agree that prison sentences should be reserved for only the most serious cases, and then always subject, in my opinion to appeal. The jury system is by no means perfect.
I also think that pleading guilty should not negate the need for a proper trial.
Yes, we can all be careless, all of us, without exception can fall into that bracket. To take away someones life because of it is a very serious matter, and the very thought, that it could have dire consequences, really dire ones, may be the incentive some people need.

martine
Posts: 710
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby martine » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:36 pm

titian wrote:You are just chipping away at the tip of the iceberg with a tea spoon, the problem is one of deteriorating attitudes in society, the notion that "I am untouchable, I can do exactly what I want", why?

Parenting - the parents are just as bad in most cases, it's been going on too long and a generation, or two, have grown up without the checks and discipline that we baby boomers were subject to.
School - no respect or fear of authority, no one "in authority" can touch me but if they do I'll ensure that they lose their job
Society at large - tacit acceptance of anti-social behaviour at all levels, lack of courtesy, no respect for rules and regulations etc etc.

Why is it that during virtually every trip from home to office I count three or four, maybe more drivers using hand held mobile phones whilst this morning the yellow revenue collector was parked in the dim early morning light with his camera pointed at a short sharp downhill stretch of 30mph road, clocking the unwary driver who probably is an otherwise law abiding sort of guy!

I have the answers but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that they would ever be implemented.

And just to balance that rather bleak view...I would suggest our society is also much more generous to deserving causes, more aware of persecuted minority groups, more 'open', more environmentally aware, more technically sophisticated, less violent, more equal...
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

sussex2
Posts: 522
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:43 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby sussex2 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:20 am

I tend to agree Martine. I see much more kindness, more generosity, and improved attitudes in many areas.
The treatment of minority groups in particular has improved greatly. It needs more work but it has improved.
We live in an age when things get reported quickly, the bad things very quickly. I don't think we should assume the latter is the norm.
The safety on our roads is better than it has ever been, but not perfect. The treatment of the most vulnerable needs much more work IMO.

ancient
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Life sentences

Postby ancient » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:47 pm

waremark wrote:
sussex2 wrote:The penalties for poor driving, dangerous driving, have been too low for a long time.
We also have a government somewhat desperate for popular approval.

A 14 year gaol sentence is a pretty significant (life destroying) penalty. Personally, I would prefer to be the victim of the fatal crash than to be sentenced to 14 years.

I consider that the 5 year max sentence for causing death by careless is exceptionally harsh - every driver I know is careless sometimes, if the driving is not bad enough to meet the dangerous category I don't think a prison sentence is appropriate.

Ahh yes, the "momentary lapse of attention" which in this http://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/royal-marine-put-cycling-life-642719 case, fortunately resulted in 'only' four days in intensive care (the availability of which is a large part of the reason our roads are now "safer" than in the past), another four in hospital and a career damaged. Whilst the careless driver who (somewhat typically nowadays) "for reasons unknown failed to see" pleads exceptional hardship and gets away with a <£500 fine.

Life sentences? Even if the killers out there are caught, unless they make themselves obnoxious to the court, they do not and will not get the maximum sentences. The CPS, juries, magistrates and judges sympathise too strongly with the idea that "There but for the grace of god, go I" for that to happen. Countless examples continue to prove this.

titian
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:26 am

Re: Life sentences

Postby titian » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:56 pm

"That rather bleak view" desevers some further discussion and whilst I recognise some of Martin’s arguments and agree with some of his sentiments I do feel that the “bad” greatly outweighs the “good” in society at large, take for example: -
1. Explosions, attacks in the street where vehicles are used as weapons followed by random shootings and stabbings by those in the vehicles.
2. Random street attacks, a headmaster beaten to death, a policeman laying a stinger to stop a vehicle thief becomes the target and is killed, the guy who tries to stop the theft of his Audi S3 and the thief runs over and kills him. Week end violence and stabbings in almost any city centre you care to mention.
3. Massive increases in drugs and drunkenness on our streets.
4. Massive increases in bullying and on-line hate messages largely affecting those who can’t live without social media.
5. The reluctance to take personal responsibly for one’s actions as often manifested in the use of multiple credit cards and loans when there is no planned way of repaying the debts.
6. Staged multiple whiplash claims to defraud the insurance company
7. And the overriding attitude of it’s always someone else’s fault and I’ll sue them to get recompense for whatever happened.

It’s the pervasive constant slide away from our historical standards that concern me as I can see no end to it.

ancient
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Life sentences

Postby ancient » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:49 pm

I'll add a number eight to your list:
8. The need for this http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-backs-new-law-protecting-emergency-workers-from-assaults-in-line-of-duty-five-case-studies_uk_59e7b1cce4b00905bdae7e17?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003. Nice that it (apparently) has backing and should go through. The requirement is (IMO) part of the same slide backwards in social responsibility.


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