Riding a bicycle without brakes

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jcochrane
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby jcochrane » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:47 pm

exportmanuk wrote:
jcochrane wrote:It appears to me that in the two clips the pedestrians stepped into the path of the oncoming riders whilst looking the wrong way.

If a pedestrian steps into the path of a two wheeled vehicle, even if travelling at slow speed, the rider has little chance. In fact even if they can avoid hitting the pedestrian they are likely to fall off and be injured.


In Clip two the rider had time to observe, anticipate and react just didn't. They were as much to blame as the pedestrian. Both had a responsibility for the safety of them selves and others around them.


I agree that the woman can be seen running along and then onto the road and could be seen in time for the rider to have stopped. In his defence he may have failed to see her on the pavement as his attention might have focussed on the white van threatening from the side turning.

I still agree with "gannet" that a pedestrian stepping or rushing out into the road without looking can result in terrible consequences and not just to themselves but other road users as well,

gannet
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby gannet » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:09 pm

As a result of this thread, my comments, and subsequent replies - I've been extra vigilant this evening - and still failed to spot the pedestrian cutting a few yards off of their route to the crossing at the lights.... she was on her phone at the time just walking along the pavement, and stepped alongside as I was passing (to her credit she did apologise) - I broke my own rule (generally ignore the halfhearted cycle lanes and ride like a motorcyclist) and was using the left hand side of the road along the cycle lane to pass the stationary cars on the approach to the red traffic lights, my focus therefore was on the car doors of the cars I was passing rather than the people on the pavements.

Just goes to show, eyes everywhere, but you will still miss things - everyday is a school day ;)

sussex2
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby sussex2 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:05 am

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
sussex2 wrote:If the pedestrian is in the middle of the road, then do they not have priority, shouldn't you give way?

Nope. I think the rule you're thinking of applies to turning into a road that a pedestrian is already crossing (Rule 206). The situations above don't match that. OTOH the Highway Code urges pedestrians to use the Green Cross Code - patently not used by the two pedestrians in the video clips.


I remain bemused by the very few opportunities to cross the road safely that exist in the UK. I've not seen it in any other country I visit regularly (much of Europe and the USA and Canada).
In most of our neighbouring countries it is the custom for turning vehicles (even often those with a green light) to give way to pedestrians. It is also usual to see frequent, inexpensive, crossings - places where all road users can expect people to be cross, and can see they may cross.

ancient
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby ancient » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:43 am

I disagree with all this guff about pedestrians needing to take responsibility for their own safety. Clearly pedestrians do not need a licence to be free to walk the streets: They are allowed to do so whether healthy or unwell, whether blind or deaf, under the influence of many legal drugs such as anti-histamines (which are recommended against whilst operating machinery). They are of all ages and abilities. They are allowed (and should be expected) to be distracted. They are to be expected to cross along desire lines which do not match some engineer's decision, because their destination is the other side of the road and not 'somewhere down there' where a crossing has been built.
The operators of vehicles bring the extra speed and frequently mass, which turns a harmless bump into something which risks someone's life. Looking the wrong way when crossing the road is not something that deserves a death sentence (nor is stepping back in confusion when shouted at). It is the operators of these vehicles who bear moral responsibility to mitigate the increased danger they bring to the public streets; that responsibility increases with the size, speed and likely lethality of the vehicle in a collision.

Rolyan
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby Rolyan » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:04 pm

ancient wrote:I disagree with all this guff about pedestrians needing to take responsibility for their own safety. Clearly pedestrians do not need a licence to be free to walk the streets: They are allowed to do so whether healthy or unwell, whether blind or deaf, under the influence of many legal drugs such as anti-histamines (which are recommended against whilst operating machinery). They are of all ages and abilities. They are allowed (and should be expected) to be distracted. They are to be expected to cross along desire lines which do not match some engineer's decision, because their destination is the other side of the road and not 'somewhere down there' where a crossing has been built.
The operators of vehicles bring the extra speed and frequently mass, which turns a harmless bump into something which risks someone's life. Looking the wrong way when crossing the road is not something that deserves a death sentence (nor is stepping back in confusion when shouted at). It is the operators of these vehicles who bear moral responsibility to mitigate the increased danger they bring to the public streets; that responsibility increases with the size, speed and likely lethality of the vehicle in a collision.

If you mean that pedestrians shouldn't have to take all the responsibility, then you're correct.

But if you mean that pedestrians shouldn't take any responsibility for their own safety, then you are the one talking utter guff. I don't think it was you, but your comments remind me of the complete buffoon on the old IAM forum, who said that cyclists have zero responsibility in the event of a collision. Yes, he was an idiot and a misguided fool, and was a good reason why we should never have allowed the cyclists to have their own section of the IAM, but even so.

I strongly suspect that you wrote your comments knowing that they would be misinterpreted, but most of the chaps on here seem wise to that, so you may have to try harder. Obviously if your comments are misunderstood, and you only mean that pedestrians share some of the responsibility, then yes, everyone will agree with you I'm sure.

P.S. your Straw Man comment about "looking the wrong way is not something that deserves a death sentence" did not go unnoticed, but was instead ignored.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:14 pm

Rolyan wrote:... but your comments remind me of the complete buffoon on the old IAM forum, who said that cyclists have zero responsibility in the event of a collision.

Wasn't he called



He did have some extreme views and anyone in/on something with an engine was to blame/responsible. Having said that the IAM (and others) have recently been touching on the idea of peds and cyclists not having responsibility and the use of an auto-responsibility law for motorised vehicles. A dangerous slippery slope in my opinion (and no that's not where I think we should send such advocates :lol: ).
Mike Roberts

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akirk
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby akirk » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:19 pm

If society spent more time accepting that we have responsibilities and privileges - and not rights, then society as a whole would be less selfish and better!
Alasdair

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Horse
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby Horse » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:13 pm

Rolyan wrote:
They are of all ages and abilities.

If you mean that pedestrians shouldn't have to take all the responsibility, then you're correct.

But if you mean that pedestrians shouldn't take any responsibility for their own safety, then you are the one talking utter guff.


Keep in mind that some pedestrians simply can't do we what motorised road users take for granted.

For example, a few years ago Filly had major surgery on her neck. During recovery she couldn't safely cross the road, as it took so long to pivot from looking one way to the other.

Some pedestrians will have sensory limits, whether vision or hearing.

Children simply can't judge speed and distance: Primary school children cannot accurately judge the speed of vehicles travelling faster than 20mph, according to a study carried out by researchers at Royal Holloway, University of London.

The researchers measured the perceptual acuity of more than 100 children in primary schools, and calculated the speed of approach that they could reliably detect. The results suggest that while adult pedestrians can make accurate judgements for vehicles travelling up to 50mph, those of primary school age become unreliable once the approach speed goes above 20mph, if the car is five seconds away.

Professor John Wann, from the Department of Psychology at Royal Holloway, said: “This is not a matter of children not paying attention, but a problem related to low-level visual detection mechanisms, so even when children are paying very close attention they may fail to detect a fast approaching vehicle.”

The researchers are now looking at the potential for using virtual reality systems to make children more aware of the errors that may occur, but Professor Wann stresses that the simplest solution lies in traffic regulation.


Trouble is, simply by looking you can't tell what someone's abilities are . . .
My own views. For better or worse :)

sussex2
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby sussex2 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:41 pm

Horse wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
They are of all ages and abilities.

If you mean that pedestrians shouldn't have to take all the responsibility, then you're correct.

But if you mean that pedestrians shouldn't take any responsibility for their own safety, then you are the one talking utter guff.


Keep in mind that some pedestrians simply can't do we what motorised road users take for granted.

For example, a few years ago Filly had major surgery on her neck. During recovery she couldn't safely cross the road, as it took so long to pivot from looking one way to the other.

Some pedestrians will have sensory limits, whether vision or hearing.

Children simply can't judge speed and distance: Primary school children cannot accurately judge the speed of vehicles travelling faster than 20mph, according to a study carried out by researchers at Royal Holloway, University of London.

The researchers measured the perceptual acuity of more than 100 children in primary schools, and calculated the speed of approach that they could reliably detect. The results suggest that while adult pedestrians can make accurate judgements for vehicles travelling up to 50mph, those of primary school age become unreliable once the approach speed goes above 20mph, if the car is five seconds away.

Professor John Wann, from the Department of Psychology at Royal Holloway, said: “This is not a matter of children not paying attention, but a problem related to low-level visual detection mechanisms, so even when children are paying very close attention they may fail to detect a fast approaching vehicle.”

The researchers are now looking at the potential for using virtual reality systems to make children more aware of the errors that may occur, but Professor Wann stresses that the simplest solution lies in traffic regulation.


Trouble is, simply by looking you can't tell what someone's abilities are . . .


Well said.

fungus
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Re: Riding a bicycle without brakes

Postby fungus » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:53 pm

Horse wrote:
Rolyan wrote:
They are of all ages and abilities.

If you mean that pedestrians shouldn't have to take all the responsibility, then you're correct.

But if you mean that pedestrians shouldn't take any responsibility for their own safety, then you are the one talking utter guff.


Keep in mind that some pedestrians simply can't do we what motorised road users take for granted.

For example, a few years ago Filly had major surgery on her neck. During recovery she couldn't safely cross the road, as it took so long to pivot from looking one way to the other.

Some pedestrians will have sensory limits, whether vision or hearing.

Children simply can't judge speed and distance: Primary school children cannot accurately judge the speed of vehicles travelling faster than 20mph, according to a study carried out by researchers at Royal Holloway, University of London.

The researchers measured the perceptual acuity of more than 100 children in primary schools, and calculated the speed of approach that they could reliably detect. The results suggest that while adult pedestrians can make accurate judgements for vehicles travelling up to 50mph, those of primary school age become unreliable once the approach speed goes above 20mph, if the car is five seconds away.

Professor John Wann, from the Department of Psychology at Royal Holloway, said: “This is not a matter of children not paying attention, but a problem related to low-level visual detection mechanisms, so even when children are paying very close attention they may fail to detect a fast approaching vehicle.”

The researchers are now looking at the potential for using virtual reality systems to make children more aware of the errors that may occur, but Professor Wann stresses that the simplest solution lies in traffic regulation.



Trouble is, simply by looking you can't tell what someone's abilities are . . .


That's correct, but to suggest that pedestrians or cyclists carry no responsibility for their actions is simply unreasonable. I can not, and never will accept that arguement. To go down that line is going to criminalise many innocent motorists who have done nothing wrong, but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Nigel.


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