Unpoliced 20 limits

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Matt1962
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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby Matt1962 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 pm

Just been reading about the situation in Cambridge where councilors are saying that they wouldn't have introduced 20 limits if they had realised that the Police wouldn't enforce them. In fact the Police have stated publically that they won't enforce - arguably making the situation worse than before the limits were reduced.
I'm not sure I understand the Police perspective on this? Surely a conviction for 40+, being double the limit; could and should attract the penalties of, for example, a 140 motorway offence (which, depending on the circumstances, could well be far less hazardous than the 40/20). A few well publicised 'school run' lengthy bans or imprisonments could have some useful effects on driver behaviour in the most hazardous environments.
I hasten to add that I am no angel regarding speed limits but always respect 20's and 30's.

crr003
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Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby crr003 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:46 pm

Matt1962 wrote:Just been reading about the situation in Cambridge where councilors are saying that they wouldn't have introduced 20 limits if they had realised that the Police wouldn't enforce them. In fact the Police have stated publically that they won't enforce - arguably making the situation worse than before the limits were reduced.
I'm not sure I understand the Police perspective on this? Surely a conviction for 40+, being double the limit; could and should attract the penalties of, for example, a 140 motorway offence (which, depending on the circumstances, could well be far less hazardous than the 40/20). A few well publicised 'school run' lengthy bans or imprisonments could have some useful effects on driver behaviour in the most hazardous environments.
I hasten to add that I am no angel regarding speed limits but always respect 20's and 30's.

Here's the Merseyside Police rationale:
http://democracy.wirral.gov.uk/document ... ix%201.pdf

It's dated November 2011, and refers to ACPO comment all the way back in 2007. When did Cambridge introduce limits?

40 is only double the limit if the limit is artificially chosen to be 20; I don't see a meaningful comparison to motorway speed limits. The police position was/is(?) that if speed control to these low limits was deemed necessary, some sort of physical intervention was needed - speed humps etc.
Pretty sure if there was a persistent speeding offender, Plod would turn out, or maybe a local Neighbourhood Speed Watch group could be formed?

Are councils still trying to implement 20s required to only do so on roads with an average speed of 24 mph, or has that requirement been removed?

martine
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:26 am

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby martine » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:48 pm

When the widespread 20 limits were introduced in Bristol, the police said they wouldn't enforce until people had a chance to get used to them. They do enforce now where there is a particular issue (outside schools, busy high streets etc). There is a 20mph speed awareness course as well.

20s are introduced for many reasons...not just safety - perhaps the Cambridge police don't see it as a priority if the 20 is there to encourage cycling for instance.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

Matt1962
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby Matt1962 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:21 pm

crr003 wrote:
Matt1962 wrote:Just been reading about the situation in Cambridge where councilors are saying that they wouldn't have introduced 20 limits if they had realised that the Police wouldn't enforce them. In fact the Police have stated publically that they won't enforce - arguably making the situation worse than before the limits were reduced.
I'm not sure I understand the Police perspective on this? Surely a conviction for 40+, being double the limit; could and should attract the penalties of, for example, a 140 motorway offence (which, depending on the circumstances, could well be far less hazardous than the 40/20). A few well publicised 'school run' lengthy bans or imprisonments could have some useful effects on driver behaviour in the most hazardous environments.
I hasten to add that I am no angel regarding speed limits but always respect 20's and 30's.

Here's the Merseyside Police rationale:
http://democracy.wirral.gov.uk/document ... ix%201.pdf

It's dated November 2011, and refers to ACPO comment all the way back in 2007. When did Cambridge introduce limits?

40 is only double the limit if the limit is artificially chosen to be 20; I don't see a meaningful comparison to motorway speed limits. The police position was/is(?) that if speed control to these low limits was deemed necessary, some sort of physical intervention was needed - speed humps etc.
Pretty sure if there was a persistent speeding offender, Plod would turn out, or maybe a local Neighbourhood Speed Watch group could be formed?

Are councils still trying to implement 20s required to only do so on roads with an average speed of 24 mph, or has that requirement been removed?



Introduced between 2014 and 16 on a lot of fairly central Cambridge roads. Surely all speed limits are artificially chosen?

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:04 pm

20 limit village near me has just been extended.

There was one villager who objected during the lead up saying it was a waste of time/money as the existing area isn't enforced.

I get fed up going through there with 4x4s, BMWs, Audis etc. stuck to my back wheel trying to intimidate me. I don't mind sticking to it in the tiny narrow street but now it's on the road out of the village I question why I'm putting myself in danger respecting it. :(
Mike Roberts

Matt1962
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby Matt1962 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:40 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:20 limit village near me has just been extended.

There was one villager who objected during the lead up saying it was a waste of time/money as the existing area isn't enforced.

I get fed up going through there with 4x4s, BMWs, Audis etc. stuck to my back wheel trying to intimidate me. I don't mind sticking to it in the tiny narrow street but now it's on the road out of the village I question why I'm putting myself in danger respecting it. :(


My guess is that you would be in the same situation if it was 30 though. These people seem to want to travel everywhere at a speed of about 38 - 40. Many of them like this speed so much that they then continue it into the NSL.
To an extent this was my original point, in that the 20 limits give the police the potential to hit them really hard - might be more useful in terms of driving standards and road safety than picking off 85 mph cruisers from Motorway bridges?

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:06 pm

Oh yes, the 40 everywhere crowd. Suffolk is infested with them. :(

Image
Mike Roberts

crr003
Posts: 376
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby crr003 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:52 pm

Matt1962 wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Matt1962 wrote:Just been reading about the situation in Cambridge where councilors are saying that they wouldn't have introduced 20 limits if they had realised that the Police wouldn't enforce them. In fact the Police have stated publically that they won't enforce - arguably making the situation worse than before the limits were reduced.
I'm not sure I understand the Police perspective on this? Surely a conviction for 40+, being double the limit; could and should attract the penalties of, for example, a 140 motorway offence (which, depending on the circumstances, could well be far less hazardous than the 40/20). A few well publicised 'school run' lengthy bans or imprisonments could have some useful effects on driver behaviour in the most hazardous environments.
I hasten to add that I am no angel regarding speed limits but always respect 20's and 30's.

Here's the Merseyside Police rationale:
http://democracy.wirral.gov.uk/document ... ix%201.pdf

It's dated November 2011, and refers to ACPO comment all the way back in 2007. When did Cambridge introduce limits?

40 is only double the limit if the limit is artificially chosen to be 20; I don't see a meaningful comparison to motorway speed limits. The police position was/is(?) that if speed control to these low limits was deemed necessary, some sort of physical intervention was needed - speed humps etc.
Pretty sure if there was a persistent speeding offender, Plod would turn out, or maybe a local Neighbourhood Speed Watch group could be formed?

Are councils still trying to implement 20s required to only do so on roads with an average speed of 24 mph, or has that requirement been removed?



Introduced between 2014 and 16 on a lot of fairly central Cambridge roads. Surely all speed limits are artificially chosen?

So the Council didn't ask the Police before committing to funding the project? A google search would have found evidence that active enforcement wasn't a given.
By artificial, I'm thinking about the old days when limits were set to the 85th percentile which seemed to satisfy people's expectations of a reasonable limit for a road.
There might be other reasons for introducing 20s, but I think the original impetus was road safety and reducing KSIs. When this didn't seem to actually work, a softer social element was posited; reduced noise, emissions, a better lifestyle.
I read Manchester has found no measurable benefit from 20s:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-39231956

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jont-
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Location: Flatlands

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby jont- » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:53 am

The uk has sadly moved from 85th to 50th percentile for speed limit setting, and further more there's no requirement for councils to pay any attention to residents, police or government guidelines about appropriate speed. Most councillors appear to have been brainwashed by brake, or believe their voters to have been, so it's pretty much impossible to fight any proposed reduction, regardless of how pointless it is or where the money could be better spent.

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AndyP
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Location: Bath/Bristol

Re: Unpoliced 20 limits

Postby AndyP » Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:00 pm

Oh the good old 85% percentile. I remember it well, and the time, work and resources it demanded. Very interesting though, and accurate.
So guess or just do it now then.

To keep myself sane I just keep quoting the media responses that I read, take for granted and agree with!!

1] The Traffic management manager did not agree with the 20's.
2] They add to noise and pollution.
3] They are not safer [opposite]
4] There are no 'previous' stats so to prove the safety, and non pollution so they are going to be 'Made up' quote. To prove it??

SIGH SIGH

However they are being enforced RIGIDLY as the safety camera partnership are always about parked up in them now.
Shades of 'Cash Cow' comes to mind.

Did anyone read in the Mail [well it has to be true!!]that the company that handles all the income from this and provides the awareness courses were having errr financial irregularities.
It is not WHAT you drive, BUT:-- the WAY that you drive it.
It is not HOW fast you drive, BUT:-- HOW you drive fast.

Cheers Andy


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