Pros and cons of hi-vis

Topics relating to Advanced Riding on bikes
crr003
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby crr003 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:14 pm

Horse wrote:Too much research? Perhaps look back to the Ambulance Visibility blog post, referring to the PPE research. The author seemed to think that research challenged commonly-held beliefs about the effectiveness of PPE.

But here's another report for you to consider:

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/specialis ... Report.pdf

Some of the findings and recommendations led to a change in policy for advice from the recovery industry to broken-down motorists.

I’ll read this one as I’m interested. 90 odd pages though.

Gareth
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby Gareth » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:30 am

Horse wrote:"they are not drawn to the lights like moths to a flame. Rather, they inadvertently steer rightward, which may or may not take them into collision with the roadside vehicle. Even normal, alert drivers in daylight conditions may steer in the direction of eye position during periods of intense fixation"

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/motheffect.html

I'm not convinced by the conclusion; on multi-lane carriageways, inexperienced drivers tend to steer towards HGVs while passing them, because that's where they're looking. I wouldn't say it's intense fixation, which to my mind implies volition, but rather a temporary mental diversion at the the subconscious level.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Horse
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:41 am

crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:Too much research? Perhaps look back to the Ambulance Visibility blog post, referring to the PPE research. The author seemed to think that research challenged commonly-held beliefs about the effectiveness of PPE.

But here's another report for you to consider:

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/specialis ... Report.pdf

Some of the findings and recommendations led to a change in policy for advice from the recovery industry to broken-down motorists.

I’ll read this one as I’m interested. 90 odd pages though.


Lots of pictures tho' :)

Some of includes analysis of a very close escape for two TOs. I think the video is available online so I'll try and post it.
My own views. For better or worse :)

ancient
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby ancient » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:57 am

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote: . . . workers feel safer when tthey're stood still close to their vehicle. Unfortunately, that vehicle is likely to bd more conspicuous than the worker. So if that person steps out the approaching driver is likely to be dazzled by the vehicle's retro-reflective material and beacons.

What am I missing here? How big's this person that's blocking the battenburg AND the light bar?!?! Policy/procedure should dictate where they should be standing?
Even crash cushion trucks get hit so maybe there's too much research on all this stuff.


Other way around! :) The reflected light from the vehicle and direct light from its beacons are far brighter than the light reflected from the piddly little (technical term, hope you're keeping up) stripes on the PPE. Worse still, approacing drivers may be dazzled so unable to see anything close to the vehicle. If there is no phase in the vehicle's beacon flash pattern where all the beacons are off together.

Trust me, I know how often and how badly IPVs get clattered.

A few years ago I was driving around this bend https://goo.gl/maps/SwADDrkTPYn - was still a 60 limit and lower guard-rails. Dark and wet, blue-flashing lights on the cross-view through the branches. As I approached, it proved to be Hedlu parked up with all lights on, by a car which had gone through the barrier and was stuck in the trees. Stopping, I then noticed the officer was standing (glad in hi-viz, waving a much weaker torch or glow-stick), about 20 feet nearer me than the car. Fortunately :D I had stopped in good time, but the hi-viz was completely invisible against the background of high intensity lighting. Only when nearer (and stationary) was his shadow visible.

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dvenman
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby dvenman » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:44 am

A friend's ex was involved last year in an RTC where he felt he hit something, stopped a little down the road to check, found nothing and carried on. He was subsequently arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous and failing to stop, the death by dangerous was dropped and he was convicted of failing to stop.

The pertinent piece is why the dangerous driving was dropped - according to someone closer to him than myself, the lighting situation around the vehicle close to where the pedestrian was struck was conducive to the sorts of things we've seen above - you see the major hazard but less well lit things nearby are obscured, and apparently this phenomenon was in play at the time the RTC happened.

Sobering - I'm not sure if I'd have caught this particular hazard, and I hope I don't get presented with a similar situation.

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Horse
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:19 pm

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote: Even crash cushion trucks get hit so maybe there's too much research on all this stuff.

Trust me, I know how often and how badly IPVs get clattered.


If you don't know what we're referring to:



???? Have the link instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGSVKt9LLaI&t=5s
Last edited by Mr Cholmondeley-Warner on Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Fix youtube link
My own views. For better or worse :)

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Horse
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:31 pm

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:Too much research? Perhaps look back to the Ambulance Visibility blog post, referring to the PPE research. The author seemed to think that research challenged commonly-held beliefs about the effectiveness of PPE.

But here's another report for you to consider:

http://assets.highways.gov.uk/specialis ... Report.pdf

Some of the findings and recommendations led to a change in policy for advice from the recovery industry to broken-down motorists.

I’ll read this one as I’m interested. 90 odd pages though.


Lots of pictures tho' :)

Some of includes analysis of a very close escape for two TOs. I think the video is available online so I'll try and post it.


8:15 onwards:

My own views. For better or worse :)

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:01 pm

Scary!

Way too many lights on our roads.

Approaching road works you are often faced with an array of halogen arc lights on poles, poorly angled towards on coming traffic. Then add in loads of flashing beacons. If you had this much flashing on the television news they have to give a warning, yet you are regularly confronted by this ... in the name of safety! :(
Mike Roberts

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Horse
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby Horse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:10 pm

Don't get me started on beacons . . . IMH (and personal)O, it's become an 'arms race' between the light bar manufacturers. Perhaps a notable exception is recent AA vans, with a very simple alternating left-right flash pattern.

Similar to the Hedlu example earlier, I encountered a police car 'guarding' flooded road. With all its beacons on, reflecting off the water it was almost impossible to see anything beyond it - including oncoming vehicles.
My own views. For better or worse :)

crr003
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Re: Pros and cons of hi-vis

Postby crr003 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:47 pm

Horse wrote:Lots of pictures tho' :)

Some of includes analysis of a very close escape for two TOs. I think the video is available online so I'll try and post it.

Interesting - especially the Workstream 2 crashing bit. Although way off biking and even hi viz now.........................
My main takeaway is that front wheel position on the hard shoulder is irrelevant and I'm happy because I've been saying that for years. Glad to know it's been proven - at least till the next piece of research! Now why does RAC/AA still go onto full lock?

How much did Crowthorne make out of that? All that work for 32 valid incidents/16 valid laser readings? As mentioned, statistically the data were fairly useless - plus was anyone watching the traffic - some vehicles will move over a lane anyway if possible?

I would point out on page 9:
"Figure 4: Screenshot from the simulator database, showing the TOV parked fend in (left), and parallel parked, displaying blue flashing lights (right)"

The Daily Mail brigade will be jumping on this as "HA/HE tests blue lights prior to enforcement capabilities!"

One thing mentioned twice:

Page 33 Steering the front wheels while a vehicle is stationary, either to straighten them when the vehicle is in fend or turn them for driving off, may cause mechanical damage to the vehicle and/or damage to the carriageway surface.

Page 72 In both these cases, the limited space available within the hard shoulder restricts the driver’s ability to return the TOV’s front wheels to be in line with the vehicle unless this is done with the vehicle stationary, potentially damaging the vehicle or roadway.

Really? Can we have some research into dry steering and its actual effects? Given that self parking cars dry steer it can't be that bad.

One thing mentioned was use of ambers/rear reds on the HS - I think it was supposed to be rear reds (and ambers) in live lane only, although I note this research was based in West Mids and they used to use every light available (including hazards).


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