Motorcycles and SatNav use

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GTR1400MAN
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Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby GTR1400MAN » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:33 pm

A new 'article' from MCN suggests the 'new laws' cover motorcycle SatNavs.

Thoughts?

Anyone have a link to the actual legislation? Without this how can anyone know from the gushings in the press?

Genuine SatNav I'd consider as not hand held and not capable of call making by itself in any case. In fact used correctly it can be a handsfree device. If they are talking about phones used as SatNavs (which I don't think they are). Yes the legislation would apply. Real SatNavs I'm not so sure.

Are there actually any new laws ... or just a doubling of points and a bigger fine?
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angus
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby angus » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:07 pm

My understanding was that the offence was "hand held". I have heard it said that it's ok to use a phone as a satnav, so long as it's in a cradle. On a bike, I'd've thought it's pretty difficult to reprogram without stopping.

I also thought it was just an increased penalty

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superplum
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby superplum » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:11 pm

Not sure about actual laws, but here is the latest iteration: https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones- ... ng-the-law . The emphasis has to be on the "if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted. This includes if you’re using devices like your sat nav or car radio."

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby Strangely Brown » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:57 am

superplum wrote:Not sure about actual laws, but here is the latest iteration: https://www.gov.uk/using-mobile-phones- ... ng-the-law . The emphasis has to be on the "if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted. This includes if you’re using devices like your sat nav or car radio."


That is not new. The law has provided for a DWDCA charge for as long as I can remember and the argument was thrashed out when the mobile phone legislation was originally brought in. The difference is that one is an absolute offence (hand held) and the other is subjective.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby GTR1400MAN » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:01 am

Further thoughts having seen elsewhere tapping the screen even when in a cradle constitutes 'use'. Though I still don't think a bike SatNag qualifies as hand held device with regard to the relevant law.

How do you answer, "Re-route?" or "Avoid congestion?" etc. Not program the thing. Most lock that function out on the move, though my car lets you do it by voice. Can of worms. Driving without due care/attention had all this covered. Trying to be specific (if in fact there is any actual law change) is going to make this a nightmare if/when a test case/appeal goes to court and sets a precedent. Here's the wording of the original 2003 ban:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003 ... ion/2/made
Last edited by GTR1400MAN on Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby martine » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:57 am

link doesnt
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby GTR1400MAN » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:04 am

Corrected. :)
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akirk
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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby akirk » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:12 am

the offence isn't using a device hand-held, but using a hand-held device - subtle difference in that even if the hand-held device is in a cradle / attached to the car it could still be argued to be a hand-held device... however it does carry on to say that it is a device which (to operate) needs to be held - so if in a cradle it doesn't need to be held...

original legislation is: The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2003

Explanatory Note(This note is not part of the Regulations)
... Regulations 110(1) and (2) prohibit a person from driving, or causing or permitting a person to drive, a motor vehicle on a road if the driver is using a hand-held mobile telephone or similar device. ...


legislation: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2003 ... ion/2/made
...“Mobile telephones
110.—(1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using—
(a)a hand-held mobile telephone; or
(b)a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).


(6) For the purposes of this regulation—
(a)a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;
(b)a person supervises the holder of a provisional licence if he does so pursuant to a condition imposed on that licence holder prescribed under section 97(3)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (grant of provisional licence);
(c)“interactive communication function” includes the following:
(i)sending or receiving oral or written messages;
(ii)sending or receiving facsimile documents;
(iii)sending or receiving still or moving images; and
(iv)providing access to the internet;


for the purposes of satnav, I fail to see how the above bans anything - the legislation clearly states that it is treated as hand-held if it is or must be held - and then clarifies the purposes, so holding a phone to put it in the cradle would not be prohibited / holding the phone to change the satnav would not be prohibited as you are only giving instruction to the device, not sending or receiving messages / documents / images, or gaining access to the internet... certainly using something attached to the vehicle (car / bike) is not held in the hand at any point...

there is a lot of wrong interpretation online, e.g. the RAC website:
It is no excuse to say you’re simply following the mapping on your hand-held device. The mobile phone law specifically refers to this, stating it is illegal to use a hand-held mobile to follow a map.

Actually I don't think that the law says this... the link to the original legislation is above - can't find any reference there to maps...

As far as I can tell the March 2017 changes are simply tougher penalties - not a change to the underlying law from 2003 - unless anyone knows better?

some of the current changes - ref. penalties
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017 ... tents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017 ... tents/made

more applicable - 2006 legislation which could cause issues if your windscreen is not clear by nature of having a satnav affixed to it!
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/49/section/26

Basically, as far as I can see - if you have to hold the device at any point - you may be caught under this legislation - if you are holding it for the purposes of the list above...

You will be caught with modern satnav systems such as Waze as they contain messaging and connect to the internet - but a device that is bespoke satnav doesn't have to connect to the internet for the satnav functions and doesn't send / receive messages, documents, images, etc. So you can hand hold a tomtom etc. under the legislation - and if not hand-held I can't see anything in the legislation banning it... - of course as above there are other ways in which you can be prosecuted, but not under that specific legislation... Perhaps MCN could clarify where their conclusions come from - 45deg angle? etc. seems very bare, not thought through and as far as I can see is wrong... but of course I may have read the law incorrectly!

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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby martine » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:33 am

akirk wrote: So you can hand hold a tomtom etc. under the legislation

But my tomtom has 'live traffic' and connects to the tomtom servers regularly using a built-in sim...does that count as 'communication'? Who knows?

I think police will be fairly pragmatic about this...if someone is hand-holding a phone and on a voice call it's pretty clear this is illegal and they will be prosecuted (if seen!). I would expect touching buttons to navigate would only be of interest to the police if the driver clearly isn't in control and that's a different aspect anyway.

Several thousand drivers have been caught recently (in the weeks before and since the new penalty) as many police forces have purposely had a crack down. It's still not enough and the offence is widely flouted but hopefully as word gets round it will begin to diminish. I'm pleased it hits new drivers harder (as in 1 offence and they have their licence withdrawn) - I would hope that would make them think twice.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Re: Motorcycles and SatNav use

Postby martine » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:35 am

Anyone know why handheld radios are specifically exempt from this law?
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)


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