'Filtering' Accident

Topics relating to Advanced Riding on bikes
trashbat
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby trashbat » Tue May 10, 2016 8:56 am

It is blaming the rider.

To pick on you, but only so as to avoid calling out other posters:

situation partially created by the rider who then failed to continue to control the situation ... the biker has to take some responsibility for what happened

and even in the above:

She could have been more assertive and moved her bike in front of the car, she could have accelerated faster once the lights were green to outpace him, she could have moved in several other ways - instead she chose a passive route which was perhaps not the best choice in hindsight ... not recognising their own lack of foresight

Well, whilst that might be good advice for future bikeists, that's still blaming the victim.

I'm fairly sure I know what the intent is here, and that it isn't that. It's that this 'accident' was avoidable, and lessons can be learnt from it, which they probably can. But whilst the rider would undoubtedly benefit from that, there is no requirement or duty of care or any kind of onus on them to be that expert. Not being that highly insightful person doesn't automatically increase blame/responsibility/whatever when someone else wrongs you.

Some things that bear relation, but are not the same as one another:

- avoidability of an outcome
- intent
- test of reasonableness (e.g. man on Clapham omnibus)
- duty of care
- legality
- criminal settlement
- civil/insurance settlement

If we should allow ourselves even the notion of 'inexpert = to blame', then presumably the inverse of that will be held to be true too, and that will be interesting, won't it?
Last edited by trashbat on Tue May 10, 2016 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Horse
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby Horse » Tue May 10, 2016 9:25 am

trashbat wrote:It is blaming the rider.
situation partially created by the rider who then failed to continue to control the situation ... the biker has to take some responsibility for what happened



Interesting parallel, perhaps, to this:

Filly's car is in for repair today. She turned from a suburban feeder road into a residential road. Parked car ahead, van round the (for its driver) left bend towards her.

She briefly considered going through the gap (it's a wide-ish piece of road at that point), but decided not to.

Crunch. BMW 1-series which had turned in from the opposite direction now planted in Filly's rear bumper.

"It's your fault - you hesitated! That's why I didn't stop in time." he said. :roll:
My own views. For better or worse :)

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StressedDave
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby StressedDave » Tue May 10, 2016 9:34 am

Personally, I think you're putting a lot of emphasis on the biker being the victim. I sadly think that there was a combination of naivety and entitlement going on...

It is of course hard to separate hindsight from real-time processes. I can't help wondering why, given that the rider could be aware of the car moving up close to her, she chose to pull away in front of the car. It may be that the car driver was not expecting that outcome. If he wasn't then you're into the reaction time hole where there's a small period of confusion time while each is trying to react. If he was, then yes, it is perilously close to assault.

Back in the day... <insert wavy lines>it was not unknown in circumstances just as this, both drivers/riders would be stuck on on the basis that if either one of them had done something different then the accident wouldn't have happened.</insert wavy lines>
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gannet
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby gannet » Tue May 10, 2016 9:38 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:A bit like rule 223 here? :twisted:

this one?

highway code wrote:Rule 223
Buses, coaches and trams. Give priority to these vehicles when you can do so safely, especially when they signal to pull away from stops. Look out for people getting off a bus or tram and crossing the road.


Bolding is my emphasis, I wouldn't call stopping mid overtake with a cyclist fairly close behind safely... I chose to go over the handle bars rather than rear end her 4x4 because the last time I did that (purely my fault that one) cost a lot of pain and money.

My point was to learn from it that while we may process things to our rules and guidelines, other sometimes foreign users of the road have different rules and guidelines ingrained in to them from their origin countries.

Apologies for the slight thread drift ;)

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akirk
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby akirk » Tue May 10, 2016 10:05 am

trashbat wrote:...there is no requirement or duty of care or any kind of onus on them to be that expert. Not being that highly insightful person doesn't automatically increase blame/responsibility/whatever when someone else wrongs you.


I am sorry - we will have to disagree...
while at a conceptual level you are are right that the rider doesn't have to be an expert - it is only correct in isolation...
once you put it back in the context of that situation then the rider has to accept some responsibility for what happens... they are expected to be expert enough to consider the outcome of their actions on other road users - otherwise they should not be on the road - same for all road users.

the rider does not have to filter - just because something is legal doesn't mean you have to do it, or even that it would be right to do it
and if the rider does choose to filter, then they need to do so properly and with due care and attention to other traffic...
As we saw on the video the rider just kept repeating that they were filtering and that filtering is legal - so what?! :) The driver could equally have argued that he was just driving forward and driving forward is legal - it is an irrelevant argument.

I am sorry, I have a lot of respect for most bikers, and I do understand that they are more vulnerable than other road users, however they can also be very entitled and aggressive / over-assertive - I have seen too many examples of justifying bad riding based on 'it is filtering' as though that somehow gives the rider carte blanche, and means that all car drivers are now in the wrong and should move out of the way because 'I am filtering' - and?! - they still need to observe the rules of the road, they still need to analyse and understand what others are doing, they still have to take responsibility for their own actions...

Yes, it is possible that the car driver suffered road rage and if so, not acceptable - and the solution here would be more education of drivers to understand about bikes & filtering - however there is no sign that he was cross - more bemused and surprised!

Or it is possible that he misjudged where her foot was - in which case we need to also ask why, having assertively overtaken a whole queue of traffic the biker felt a need to hold up the car / not move off in a timely manner?

I think that there is a comment above that the biker eventually leaves the scene turning left... if so - why was she filtering up the right-hand side of the traffic? That would be bad riding would it not, moving from assertive to agressive... looking again at the video - at 3.12 it is clear that she is indeed turning left, into an area where had she been turning alongside the cars she would have been in the hatched area - sorry that is bad riding, and it is interesting to see that bit of the video has been edited to remove the majority of the turn... yet it is a t-junction and therefore she is either going left or right, and clearly not right - so all in all, not a wise set of choices...

I think this is a clear indication of a biker who believes that as there is a 'right' to filter, she will use it - without really thinking through the consequences or even what would happen once the lights go green and she is now on the right-hand side of traffic and needing to turn left... into a hatched area...

I am not saying that it was a good outcome - no-one would want to see someone else being injured... but I do think that actually there were errors made by the rider and the whole premise of the video is 'I was filtering' therefore I was right - nope, while filtering is legal, you still have many responsibilities around how you do it and how you ride, and it would appear that some of those responsibilities were forgotten...

I am not anti-biker by any means and go out of my way to make space for them and let them past etc. - but all road users must take responsibility for their own actions, we do not live / drive / ride in a vaccuum...

Alasdair

trashbat
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby trashbat » Tue May 10, 2016 10:18 am

akirk wrote:I am sorry - we will have to disagree...
while at a conceptual level you are are right that the rider doesn't have to be an expert - it is only correct in isolation...
once you put it back in the context of that situation then the rider has to accept some responsibility for what happens... they are expected to be expert enough to consider the outcome of their actions on other road users - otherwise they should not be on the road - same for all road users.

In law at least, this tends to be merely to the standard of a reasonable person - i.e. an average road user's skills and expectations. Probably not even a DSA pass, if we're honest. So this burden of responsibility to predict the future that you're talking about is strictly limited, where it even exists at all. You can't project the nth-percentile skills that you're wise enough to have acquired onto a duty for everyone else.

Now filtering plays into that system. It's not necessarily what this reasonable person might expect, part of why it's a manoeuvre 'fraught with difficulty'. But arriving there, sitting offside and then having someone drive into you - outside of SMIDSY excuses - is neither filtering nor a fit for 'reasonable'.

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akirk
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby akirk » Tue May 10, 2016 10:52 am

trashbat wrote:
akirk wrote:I am sorry - we will have to disagree...
while at a conceptual level you are are right that the rider doesn't have to be an expert - it is only correct in isolation...
once you put it back in the context of that situation then the rider has to accept some responsibility for what happens... they are expected to be expert enough to consider the outcome of their actions on other road users - otherwise they should not be on the road - same for all road users.

In law at least, this tends to be merely to the standard of a reasonable person - i.e. an average road user's skills and expectations. Probably not even a DSA pass, if we're honest. So this burden of responsibility to predict the future that you're talking about is strictly limited, where it even exists at all. You can't project the nth-percentile skills that you're wise enough to have acquired onto a duty for everyone else.

Now filtering plays into that system. It's not necessarily what this reasonable person might expect, part of why it's a manoeuvre 'fraught with difficulty'. But arriving there, sitting offside and then having someone drive into you - outside of SMIDSY excuses - is neither filtering nor a fit for 'reasonable'.


All very reasonable - except that video shows it not to be quite so simple... we can't from that video - (which is presented very one sided and has been edited quite heavily) tell exactly what intentions etc. might have been - there is a clear link drawn between the biker claiming that it is legal to filter and therefore the driver is wrong - however the point I am making is that there are ways of filtering and the biker needs to learn a little bit more, if a biker is going to filter then they absolutely must consider the possible outcomes - in exactly the same way (and for the same reasons - unexpected movements) that a driver should consider possible outcomes when overtaking - and a part of this is to consider the outcome if a driver were to misjudge positions / not understand the move / take offence / etc.

What is clear here is that there was a consequence from a move initiated by the rider, and which outcome she neither considered nor did anything to avoid - and none of that is particularly advanced driving - that should surely be the standard of a normal driver / rider... Add in the fact that she was 'filtering' up the right-hand side of the traffic, to turn left and I think it is clear that the rider was more focused on her 'right to filter' than thinking through whether it was appropriate to filter in these circumstances... filtering like overtaking should not be seen as one movement to the front of a queue, but a series of separate movements passing each car in turn, and at each point making a decision whether to continue to filter or not - something she failed to do as she ended up on the wrong side of the traffic...

so yes, she does need to share responsibility...

Alasdair

sussex2
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby sussex2 » Tue May 10, 2016 11:31 am

As is often the case with these videos I can't help thinking there is more to this than is immediately apparent.
Call me suspicious (Hello Suspicious) but I wouldn't mind seeing the few minutes of recording before.

ancient
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby ancient » Tue May 10, 2016 12:45 pm

akirk wrote:... they are expected to be expert enough to consider the outcome of their actions on other road users - otherwise they should not be on the road - same for all road users.

Not directly relevant to the incident under discussion, but this is not the case for all road users, only for those who need a licence to use the roads. Pedestrians are there by right and there is no requirement for them to be " expert enough to consider the outcome of their actions on other road users" nor even for them to be under the control of such an expert. Anyone not compulsorily detained has a right to be on the roads and there is an obligation on licensed road users to be aware of the possibility: Easy enough to spot when it is a young child, but adults too can use the roads whilst unable to consider the outcome of their actions on others.

Had I been in the rider's position and realised I had made a mistake in coming down the right when wanting to move off left, then I would have established eye contact with the driver and used a friendly hand signal to point out my intention and request permission. Had he still driven into me (as this driver clearly did) I would have been somewhat angry. The only time a driver deliberately drove at me for filtering, he gave me verbal warning beforehand (i.e. "I'm going to f'ing kill you you b'star'" - and no, I hadn't touched his car). Taking note of where his steering was pointing I started to move on green then anchored up. He drove through where I would have been had I not stopped suddenly. Yes, some will deliberately do this. I followed him down towards Putney Bridge, then overtook when he got stuck behind the next traffic jam.

MotorSportsFan
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Re: 'Filtering' Accident

Postby MotorSportsFan » Tue May 10, 2016 1:05 pm

trashbat wrote:A nice little line in victim blaming going on here.

Not at all.

When asking an associate "what could you have done differently?" It is to make them aware that they often have choices that could mitigate the risk of injury or death. After all it is no consolation being right when you are lying in a hospital bed or wooden box. Better to act to protect yourself on the presumption that nobody else will.

In this specific case it may have only needed a look over the shoulder, some eye contact and a little wave of apology/thanks to have defused the situation and elicited a bit of space.
Chris Kelly
Manchester 500 Advanced Motorcyclists (IAM group)


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