Masters - Safety Vs Progress

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Horse
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Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby Horse » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:23 am

This popped up on LinkedIn this morning:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-whats ... id-barnes/

Article ends:
"So there we have it, I passed but was too focussed on safety to be able to achieve the distinction"

Fact, or misunderstanding on his part?
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

crr003
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby crr003 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:11 am

Horse wrote:This popped up on LinkedIn this morning:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-whats ... id-barnes/

Article ends:
"So there we have it, I passed but was too focussed on safety to be able to achieve the distinction"

Fact, or misunderstanding on his part?

Misunderstanding with that soundbite.

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Horse
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:20 am

Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby Horse » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:21 am

crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:This popped up on LinkedIn this morning:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-whats ... id-barnes/

Article ends:
"So there we have it, I passed but was too focussed on safety to be able to achieve the distinction"

Fact, or misunderstanding on his part?

Misunderstanding with that soundbite.


The comments on the mark sheet explain more:

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E12 ... NHvQfCDS28

Implication seems to be that Masters doesn't take passenger comfort into account.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

crr003
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:32 pm

Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby crr003 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:43 am

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote:
Horse wrote:This popped up on LinkedIn this morning:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/so-whats ... id-barnes/

Article ends:
"So there we have it, I passed but was too focussed on safety to be able to achieve the distinction"

Fact, or misunderstanding on his part?

Misunderstanding with that soundbite.


The comments on the mark sheet explain more:

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E12 ... NHvQfCDS28

Implication seems to be that Masters doesn't take passenger comfort into account.

Still wrong. It's about managing transitions (someone who can drive explained to me once). I can understand if his day job is ferrying people around in a Jag though.
Just on the borderline pass/fail too (In the old days 37 was a fail I think). His implication that all 1s is required is wrong also.

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Horse
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby Horse » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:25 pm

Is Masters a 'single event', or a course (I thought the latter). If a course, then either he changed his driving for the test, or wasn't prepared for that examiner's expectations.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

crr003
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby crr003 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:38 pm

Horse wrote:Is Masters a 'single event', or a course (I thought the latter). If a course, then either he changed his driving for the test, or wasn't prepared for that examiner's expectations.

It's a series of runs with a mentor, but you knew that. (Unless he just went for test only option).
My question would be - was the mentor aware of the Examiner's likes/dislikes? Was it the "normal" Examiner or one from a different area.

I realise the Examiner should be marking to a standard, but .........

The balance between progress/comfort is tricky (I speak from historical experience). A comment made once was a Masters drive "should be a Police drive without blue lights and exemptions" (lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance....)
It does read like he wasn't "on it" enough - the comment about corner entry speeds and comfort braking. Still, a pass is a good result and he seems to want to repeat the experience, so knows what areas to change. (If he can afford it!)
Last edited by crr003 on Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Horse
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby Horse » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:51 pm

crr003 wrote: It's a series of runs with a mentor, but you knew that. (Unless he just went for test only option).


I thought it was - but hadn't realised there was a 'test only' option.

crr003 wrote: It does read like he wasn't "on it" enough - the comment about corner entry speeds and comfort braking.


There's another 'blue touch paper' moment . . . not using the brakes when 'making progress' ;)

The examiner, from my reading, is saying:
- He shouldn't have touched the brakes (no need)
- Earlier planning would have facilitated acceleration sense to get to the required speed
- He should have been entering bends faster

Unsaid, to enter faster would require acceleration sense much earlier. If a 'blue light run' aspect to marking, then I recall the comment made by a trafpol about his driving course:
"Accelerate up to 30 limits" - ie on the throttle until braking to enter lower speed limits - so no subtle throttle use for speed change!

Or to quote from another trafpol:
"Believe me, if I'm on a shout, I use the brakes".

crr003 wrote: Still, a pass is a good result and he seems to want to repeat the experience, so knows what areas to change.


I wonder whether he actually wants to change? Deep-down, he has no long-term need to drive that way - indeed it might be counter-productive to do so.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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akirk
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby akirk » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:55 pm

I don't think that the concept of the balance between progress and comfort is tricky - but the doing it certainly is...
I have been driven by some who can demonstrate it beautifully - they are in the top few dozen drivers in the country, and way way above Master standard... I can do everything they can do in terms of comfort and progress - sadly not always in the right order / at the same time...

Where he makes a mistake I think is in his comment that he needs to be more aggressive next time - language semantics perhaps, but to me progress does not need to equal aggressive. When we look at the flow of a journey we could map it as a wave - progress is about the amplitude of that wave - smoothness is about the transition of the changes:

Image
The blue line - high amplitude - shows greater progress...

The more staccato the transition - the more disruptive to the passenger, the more legato - the more comfortable...

Quite simply, the greater the amplitude, the more difficult it is to maintain smoothness in the transition - therefore, the easiest way to maintain comfort is to back off on the amplitude / progress...

So, it is not about being more aggressive - it is about adding amplitude without losing the smoothness of the transition - i.e. driving at a higher level...

it is the same challenge in music - faster / greater sound level differences -> more staccato...

Alasdair

crr003
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby crr003 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:06 pm

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote: It's a series of runs with a mentor, but you knew that. (Unless he just went for test only option).


I thought it was - but hadn't realised there was a 'test only' option.

Well I could be wrong. There used to be a test only option but I can't see it specified now.

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote: It does read like he wasn't "on it" enough - the comment about corner entry speeds and comfort braking.


There's another 'blue touch paper' moment . . . not using the brakes when 'making progress' ;)

The examiner, from my reading, is saying:
- He shouldn't have touched the brakes (no need)
- Earlier planning would have facilitated acceleration sense to get to the required speed
- He should have been entering bends faster

Unsaid, to enter faster would require acceleration sense much earlier. If a 'blue light run' aspect to marking, then I recall the comment made by a trafpol about his driving course:
"Accelerate up to 30 limits" - ie on the throttle until braking to enter lower speed limits - so no subtle throttle use for speed change!

Or to quote from another trafpol:
"Believe me, if I'm on a shout, I use the brakes".

I remember a conversation between I think Vonhosen and a serving TrafPol and the latter said he was proper "clog & anchor" on a pursuit against what he was taught in driving school. Again it comes down to transitions. Do you remember the thread about 1/3 or 2/3s rule for acceleration between hazards?

Horse wrote:
crr003 wrote: Still, a pass is a good result and he seems to want to repeat the experience, so knows what areas to change.


I wonder whether he actually wants to change? Deep-down, he has no long-term need to drive that way - indeed it might be counter-productive to do so.

Quite so. I'm sure his customers wouldn't expect a proper Masters drive to the airport.
I've known professional drivers and ADIs want IAM on their advertising as a selling point, but not drive/teach like that.

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Horse
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Re: Masters - Safety Vs Progress

Postby Horse » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:00 pm

crr003 wrote: Do you remember the thread about 1/3 or 2/3s rule for acceleration between hazards?


I've only ever tried it for myself after reading about it on t'interweb.

I don't like the way (from the way I read and [mis?]understood?) it seems to place emphasis on getting from 'Here >>>> there' which may remove caution for 'here>>>danger in between>>> there' IYSWIM or, to use jargon, emphasis on limit point rather than surprise horizon*

* See the second on-road photo in the article, annotated with the limit point - which neatly ignores the (much closer) blind entrance through a high wall.
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.


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