Cognitive bias and the "thirds" rule

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Gareth
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Gareth » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:17 pm

I, also, think that a look to the distance is hardly more than a glance. After that you already know how much acceleration you're going to be using, modified on an on-going basis by assessment of closer hazards. That looking as far as you can see is just setting the scene, defining the outside envelope, for hazard management along that section of road.

Horse wrote:Do you use commentaries to improve driving?

No, absolutely not, utter bollocks. Virtually everyone I've met is a worse driver when they are trying to add a commentary and, while I'm their passenger, I prefer the concentrate on what's important.

Having said that, people who have been expressly trained to provide a commentary for professional reasons are usually so much better a driver that I can't detect where their driving concentration is affected. I strongly suspect it's because they're not driving quickly enough for that to be an issue.
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exportmanuk
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby exportmanuk » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:22 pm

When I give spoken commentary I always slow down from my normal pace, usually as I am giving it for the benefit of an associate and I want them to have a chance to see what I am looking at and not put them at risk by diverting their concentration. Sometimes I give commentary from a following position again this tends to slow things down a little. During the Summer I was out with one of our local BIBs who helps us out on occasions. He was giving commentary from behind me. It was just a constant stream of information somewhat overwhelming as I was trying to concentrate on my ride and making good progress. Made me reconsider how I deliver commentary to an associate.
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hir
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby hir » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:07 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
Horse wrote:
hir wrote:
Horse wrote:
This is more the issue. We have a finite amount of concentration and, allied with techniques such as chasing the limit point, is - necessarily - putting attention into the distance potentially missing hazards which are closer. Directing attention like this is known to take it from elsewhere (eg basketball gorilla).


Not sure that I am understanding the problem. During the first stage of the "thirds" technique there isn't undue attention focused on the distance. .


Unintended irony, perhaps, that you don't see the problem :)

(and another 3000 or so words borrowed from t'internet - too tedious to read now because I need to concentrate on more immediate stuff ;) )

I think perhaps you're concentrating too much on the mention of the thirds technique and imagining it's somehow using all the driver's attention bandwidth. It isn't. You probably use something similar yourself, and having learnt it (whatever it is), it becomes a subconscious competence. You are trained to look as far into the distance as you can, whenever you can, and it takes fractions of a second to absorb what's there. We don't spend the whole straight working out where the thirds are, or what is the appropriate terminal speed. We just do it. The gorilla video analogy is inappropriate because it deliberately diverts you from the important stuff by making you concentrate on the unimportant FOR A PERIOD OF NEARLY 45 SECONDS! If you did that on the road, you'd be dead, so you don't. You time-slice. A little attention here, a little there ... always worrying about what you might have missed and going back over what you observed, noting changes.


Precisely so. And, may I say, written in a style that is succinct, brief and to the point. One hundred and sixty-three words that make eminent sense. :D

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Re: Masters assessment

Postby hir » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:39 pm

Horse wrote:So asking someone to concentrate on the far distance (which they must do to implement any variation of 'thirds') MUST take concentration away from the near distance.


Nobody, who advocates using the "thirds" rule correctly, will ever... "ask someone to concentrate on the far distance". What we are suggesting is nothing more than a glance whereby, as you emerge from a bend, your eyes follow the limit point to its new static position in front of the next bend, however far away that might be. So, I'll bet good money that when you drive out of a bend your eyes follow the limit point to its next static position however far away that position might be, yes? In other words you will be scanning to the farthest point in the distance. If you're not doing that, then this discussion has no further value. However, I am sure that is what you will be doing, otherwise you wouldn't be a member here :D. Once the furthest point has been ascertained, then, regardless of the "thirds" rule, one will continuously scan back to the vehicle, then back to the limit point, then back to vehicle... throwing in a few lateral scans and rear-view mirror checks. The division of the road ahead into three zones is merely an adjunct to that scanning process and consequent gathering of information. If, whoever first introduced you to the "thirds" rule suggested that you needed to... "concentrate" [I think you've also used the word "focus" in this regard] on the far distance, then they were misinforming and misleading you and, in all probability, didn't properly understand the technique themselves, maybe?

I'm happy to be disabused of this opinion if you think it's not correct.
Last edited by hir on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:03 pm

exportmanuk wrote:When I give spoken commentary I always slow down from my normal pace, usually as I am giving it for the benefit of an associate and I want them to have a chance to see what I am looking at and not put them at risk by diverting their concentration. Sometimes I give commentary from a following position again this tends to slow things down a little. During the Summer I was out with one of our local BIBs who helps us out on occasions. He was giving commentary from behind me. It was just a constant stream of information somewhat overwhelming as I was trying to concentrate on my ride and making good progress. Made me reconsider how I deliver commentary to an associate.

Quite so. When using radios commentary from behind has to be beneficial to the Associate and not a 'look how good I am' delivery.

When giving a demo ride from the front, with or without radio, I also keep the pace down. It takes a long time to be able to follow someone and watch their riding while keeping safe yourself ... we can't expect an Associate to do that and learn something new. So it's pace off and an initial brief for them to watch one particular aspect of the demo ride.
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Horse
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Well, I've learned a lesson here: don't go putting too many confusing words into a post or two :lol: :hit: :help: :drool:

hir wrote: otherwise you wouldn't be a member here :D


Actually I'm quite pleased you mentioned on that, because it's worth noting that this is in the 'Masters' thread, not just in an 'advanced' forum, so presumably looking (aiming, not just a glance ;) ) towards the highest standards?

And this is where I'm confused by responses: do you not agree with the the way cognitive bias can affect judgement and decisions on-road, or are you suggesting that certain drivers are exempt (see, another 'masters'/advanced police reference) or immune from them? :? :?:

On this:
hir wrote: is nothing more than a glance


Note that I included info on drivers emerging from junctions, where research showed that they typically looked for just 0.4s. Yes, just a glance, nothing more :) :drums:
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Horse
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:09 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote: Quite so. When using radios commentary from behind has to be beneficial to the Associate and not a 'look how good I am' delivery.

When giving a demo ride from the front, with or without radio, I also keep the pace down. It takes a long time to be able to follow someone and watch their riding while keeping safe yourself ... we can't expect an Associate to do that and learn something new. So it's pace off and an initial brief for them to watch one particular aspect of the demo ride.


Similar applies for giving directions too, the person ahead (or sat alongside, for that matter) needs time to listen to what you're saying, think about it, then align it with what they can see, before actually responding.
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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:13 pm

Horse wrote:Well, I've learned a lesson here: don't go putting too many confusing words into a post or two :lol: :hit: :help: :drool:

Not necessarily confusing (although those articles were particularly abstruse), just too much, but perhaps that was your intention, as I suggested with the ;) smiley in my first reply
Horse wrote:
hir wrote: otherwise you wouldn't be a member here :D


Actually I'm quite pleased you mentioned on that, because it's worth noting that this is in the 'Masters' thread, not just in an 'advanced' forum, so presumably looking (aiming, not just a glance ;) ) towards the highest standards?

And this is where I'm confused by responses: do you not agree with the the way cognitive bias can affect judgement and decisions on-road, or are you suggesting that certain drivers are exempt (see, another 'masters'/advanced police reference) or immune from them? :? :?:

Of course we (perhaps putting words in others' mouths) agree. We're trying to explain that we're aware of the danger and don't spend time "concentrating" (your word) on one thing to the exclusion of others. I don't think you're confused at all ... :nono:
Horse wrote:On this:
hir wrote: is nothing more than a glance


Note that I included info on drivers emerging from junctions, where research showed that they typically looked for just 0.4s. Yes, just a glance, nothing more :) :drums:

You can't have it both ways - either you think we* fixate on things for too long, or we don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

* we = advanced drivers / riders. I hope we look a little bit more carefully than average Joe, although I was caught out some 6 months ago - reinforcing the need to look carefully.
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:21 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:You can't have it both ways - either you think we* fixate on things for too long, or we don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Ah - I've possibly confused the issue (that's probably an understatement . . . )

It's not the duration of the look (so I can have it both ways), it's the intention/expected outcome/etc. And that's where the cognitive bias comes in - according to the theory you *can't* ignore it and 'act properly', quick glance or long gaze. Instead, you can be aware of the potential consequence.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote: * we = advanced drivers / riders. I hope we look a little bit more carefully than average Joe


You'd like to think so . . .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/euud3txjhsvs1 ... v.tif?dl=0

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote: I was caught out some 6 months ago - reinforcing the need to look carefully.


And that's where cognitive bias can come in again, looking 'carefully' may still not work.
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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:30 pm

Horse wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote: I was caught out some 6 months ago - reinforcing the need to look carefully.


And that's where cognitive bias can come in again, looking 'carefully' may still not work.

No, I didn't look carefully enough. I was probably caught out by cognitive bias, and need to look properly and ask myself if I've scanned the whole danger area (it was a car I didn't see, not a bike, btw. My only excuse is that this was at dusk).
Nick


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