Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
Gareth
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Gareth » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:22 am

fungus wrote:Another thing that I've found is that many hold on to first gear too long because they don't use enough gas, which make negotiating a roundabout from a standstill jerky in first gear.

Related, I suspect some instructors get their pupils to change to second gear too early because they have trouble with allowing enough time for the engine speed to fall when going into second. This then lives with them most of their driving lives, as I've found out talking to an IAM local observer assessor :shock:

Entering a roundabout I'd much rather see the driver accelerate in first to the point they're no longer side on to circulating vehicles, whereas rather too many drivers get a car slightly moving then waste time changing gear while they're in a position of relative danger.
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IcedKiwi
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby IcedKiwi » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:28 am

Gareth wrote:Related, I suspect some instructors get their pupils to change to second gear too early because they have trouble with allowing enough time for the engine speed to fall when going into second. This then lives with them most of their driving lives, as I've found out talking to an IAM local observer assessor :shock:

I think a lot of people (my wife included) just drive by noise. In her 1.6 petrol she’ll shift up early on the roundabout, where as in my 3l straight six she’ll go the whole way round in 1st at ~4k revs. When I asked her, she didn’t realise she was doing anything different and thought she was driving as she always did.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:48 pm

fungus wrote:He has been driving a VW Beetle TDi. Doesn't use any gas when moving off, with the consequence that he stalled my petrol 1.4 Fiesta. He had been allowed to move off by just lifting the clutch, then when the car was moving use some gas.

This is a common story. Anti-stall and easy pull away setup in diesels make for very lazy drivers. Once they get in a small family petrol car, stalling is common. The anti-stall/easy pull away is now making its way onto petrol motorcycles. It makes for 'interesting' slow speed riding as I found it got in the way of good throttle control.
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Horse
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby Horse » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:07 pm

Ah, yes, the same sort of laziness encouraged by syncromesh gearboxes and power steering ;)

TBH I've not ridden a bike with that, and I've seen people struggle when linked braking tried to 'help'. Many riders didn't like the way BMW's power - assisted brakes 'helped' too.
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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:10 pm

Horse wrote:Ah, yes, the same sort of laziness encouraged by syncromesh gearboxes and power steering ;)

Touché! :)
:swords:

Lazy was probably not the right description. Less capable? And no, I've never driven something that doesn't have syncromesh (so less capable than someone who has ... for that aspect). Pulling away though is quite a fundamental skill and the trend for driving schools to use un-stallable vehicles does no favours to the paying learner.
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fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:24 pm

Gareth wrote:
fungus wrote:Another thing that I've found is that many hold on to first gear too long because they don't use enough gas, which make negotiating a roundabout from a standstill jerky in first gear.

Related, I suspect some instructors get their pupils to change to second gear too early because they have trouble with allowing enough time for the engine speed to fall when going into second. This then lives with them most of their driving lives, as I've found out talking to an IAM local observer assessor :shock:

Entering a roundabout I'd much rather see the driver accelerate in first to the point they're no longer side on to circulating vehicles, whereas rather too many drivers get a car slightly moving then waste time changing gear while they're in a position of relative danger.


I think the problem is that pupils are not encouraged to accelerate briskly, with the consequence that they are not building up enough speed, there for holding on to first gear for too long. When entering a roundabout from a standstill, if you accelerate briskly on to the roundabout there is a point where the steering is set slightly left, and for a moment, no further steering is required. It's at this point where second gear is taken before steering back to the right. Some learners change gear as you said, when the car is just moving. If they are not encouraged to use brisk acceleration (relatively) they will struggle. Years ago I had an associate who was still going around roundabouts in first gear even after four years of driving. :o

I cure any pupil who is affraid to us the revs by taking them up Spread Eagle Hill on the C13 just south of Melbury Abbas between Shaftesbury and Blandford Forum. This is a 1:6 hill, which may be known to those who have attended the Shaftesbuy Driving Days. If they do not get going they will end up not getting above about 20mph, especially if they change up to third before the revs have hit 5000rpm in my 1.4 Fiesta.

Nigel.

fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:37 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:
Horse wrote:Ah, yes, the same sort of laziness encouraged by syncromesh gearboxes and power steering ;)

Touché! :)
:swords:

Lazy was probably not the right description. Less capable? And no, I've never driven something that doesn't have syncromesh (so less capable than someone who has ... for that aspect). Pulling away though is quite a fundamental skill and the trend for driving schools to use un-stallable vehicles does no favours to the paying learner.


Several instructors near me have the Audi A1 TDi. According to one of my ex (test passed) pupils, his freind learnt with one of them. Apparently they have something called Clutch Assist which, IIAC, makes it virtually impossible to stall. The consequence of this was, that when his freind tried to drive his first car, a low powered petrol car, he couldn't move it because he stalled every time he tried to pull away. He had to go back to basics, and practice clutch contol. :roll: This is the reason why I will not teach in such a car.

As I have virtually retired though, it won't be a problem.

Nigel.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:05 pm

Mike Roberts

fungus
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby fungus » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:22 pm

Must have learnt in an Audi A1 TDi. Well talked through that man.

Nigel.

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jont-
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby jont- » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:56 pm

fungus wrote:Several instructors near me have the Audi A1 TDi. According to one of my ex (test passed) pupils, his freind learnt with one of them. Apparently they have something called Clutch Assist which, IIAC, makes it virtually impossible to stall. The consequence of this was, that when his freind tried to drive his first car, a low powered petrol car, he couldn't move it because he stalled every time he tried to pull away. He had to go back to basics, and practice clutch contol. :roll: This is the reason why I will not teach in such a car.

I have to wonder why the DVLA haven't banned such a car as unsuitable for demonstrating your skills. Is hill-hold assist allowed? What about reversing sensors?

/grumpy luddite.


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