Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:23 pm

How on earth did they deduce 11 percent? Did novice driver collisions really fall by that much overnight when HPT was introduced?
Nick

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Horse
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby Horse » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 pm

http://www.dft.gov.uk/rmd/project.asp?i ... ctID=10067

- Sixteen samples of 8,000 candidates taking their practical driving test in a particular week were selected every three months. These candidates were sent a questionnaire shortly after taking their practical test, which included questions about their preparation for both the theory and practical elements of the driving test, time spent in different types of driving environment and also some basic attitude questions. More than 42,000 people responded to this first questionnaire.
- The second element of the project was to follow the experiences of new drivers at intervals of 6, 12, 24 and 36 months after passing the test. Questionnaires collected information on driving experience, accidents, offences, attitudes and self-reported behaviours. It was possible to assess the effects of changes of the introduction of the hazard perception component to the theory test in November 2002.
My own views. For better or worse :)

PhilAsia
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Re: Masters assessment

Postby PhilAsia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:28 am

fungus wrote:
Gareth wrote:
fungus wrote:Another thing that I've found is that many hold on to first gear too long because they don't use enough gas, which make negotiating a roundabout from a standstill jerky in first gear.

Related, I suspect some instructors get their pupils to change to second gear too early because they have trouble with allowing enough time for the engine speed to fall when going into second. This then lives with them most of their driving lives, as I've found out talking to an IAM local observer assessor :shock:

Entering a roundabout I'd much rather see the driver accelerate in first to the point they're no longer side on to circulating vehicles, whereas rather too many drivers get a car slightly moving then waste time changing gear while they're in a position of relative danger.


I think the problem is that pupils are not encouraged to accelerate briskly, with the consequence that they are not building up enough speed, there for holding on to first gear for too long. When entering a roundabout from a standstill, if you accelerate briskly on to the roundabout there is a point where the steering is set slightly left, and for a moment, no further steering is required. It's at this point where second gear is taken before steering back to the right. Some learners change gear as you said, when the car is just moving. If they are not encouraged to use brisk acceleration (relatively) they will struggle. Years ago I had an associate who was still going around roundabouts in first gear even after four years of driving. :o

I cure any pupil who is affraid to us the revs by taking them up Spread Eagle Hill on the C13 just south of Melbury Abbas between Shaftesbury and Blandford Forum. This is a 1:6 hill, which may be known to those who have attended the Shaftesbuy Driving Days. If they do not get going they will end up not getting above about 20mph, especially if they change up to third before the revs have hit 5000rpm in my 1.4 Fiesta.

Nigel.


Correct
1) I always thought diesels should not be allowed as a training vehicle as from student and ADI conversations (why a diesel?) it seemed a cop out and indicative of the level of technique taught by an ADI. That was backed up as evidenced by students that came from other schools to mine.
2) I taught clutch control in 1st, 2nd and 3rd with no gas in a petrol engined vehicle. Clutch control had to be sensitive...obviously.
3) Steering. Car park.Initially using hook over steering aid. Then, tickover and full lock left and right figure 8s. Then steer at tree, turn left, steer at red car, steer right, etc. Left, right, left, right in varying amounts. Also, use of horn whilst steering,plus preparation of hand position, sweep, hold and change gear (as I had noticed the Roundabout problem in my first few months teaching).....45 mins to an hour and they had a competency level that could not easily be reached without immersion. Bit military, but hey! it worked and I feel/am pretty certain the confidence gained cut down the number of lessons.
4) My training vehicle was a hot hatch* and I taught as many (so-called) advanced techniques as possible within the timeframe, so as to prepare them as much as possible for the future.
*the hot hatch was a great tool for teaching. I only had one bad instance, where a pupil would not respond to instruction and then used the gas whilst I used the brake(!) He was promptly ejected from the vehicle. The next week his friends informed me he had been driving/stolen his mother's Renault - six up - and rolled it on a roundabout...Numpty!
5) After my first six months I decided not to allow students to take the test if they were not at the correct standard (previously I had wrongly buckled to pressure. Something that was endemic at the time) They could take it with another company, but not with me. When it was explained they generally understood and finished their training. Reason for the change? Someone I thought would not pass, passed. I had potentially caused a danger. I hope my failing did not cause any major dramas.
6) Not all ADIs drive like they teach. Although I would agree that sadly most do. I think this is indicative of the general standard of instructor, which is generally quite poor. In my case, I was curious as to my ability, so I bought Roadcraft and took my RoARDA. I achieved a Gold on my first attempt without any previously observed drive.
From 1977 till now...always something to learn. I'm still a learner.

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akirk
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby akirk » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:30 pm

some really good comments there - I have noticed in the AD world that often those coming in to that world are not keen to use a car's revs - something reinforced by the number of cars that now tell you to change gear at a point which helps the manufacturer meet emissions targets and has nothing to do with the correct gear for the speed / circumstances - often leaving the driver floundering in far to high a gear and nowhere near the torque curve...

Alasdair

waremark
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby waremark » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:48 pm

akirk wrote:some really good comments there - I have noticed in the AD world that often those coming in to that world are not keen to use a car's revs - something reinforced by the number of cars that now tell you to change gear at a point which helps the manufacturer meet emissions targets and has nothing to do with the correct gear for the speed / circumstances - often leaving the driver floundering in far to high a gear and nowhere near the torque curve...

Alasdair

The Renaultsport Megane which I drive has an amusing wrinkle on this. The dash has a gear change recommendation indicator which behaves in the typical fashion you describe - wants you to change up at very low revs. However there is a Renaultsport program on the central display screen which seems to do exactly the opposite. I think what it shows you is the lowest gear you could change to at this road speed, but it may be the gear that puts you closest to either the torque or power peak. You certainly get one indicator telling you to change up, the other to change down. The Renaultsport program is generally as useless as the regular gearchange indicator.

Personally, I do often change up at lower revs than some of you guys - I don't like the use of high revs except where strong acceleration is (or may be) required and I try to keep the engine in a pleasant sounding rev range (4 -6,000 in the Aston, ha-ha! - but generally changing up by 3k in my diesel daily driver).

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Horse
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby Horse » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:11 pm

It should be mandatory to learn to ride motorcycles - especially those that are totally gutless below 5k revs :)

Does anyone know how manufacturers decide the 'change' (up or down) revs?
My own views. For better or worse :)

IcedKiwi
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby IcedKiwi » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:12 am

Horse wrote:Does anyone know how manufacturers decide the 'change' (up or down) revs?

It’s purely based on achieving the best fuel consumption over the legislative drive cycle (i.e NEDC, urban/extra-urban).
It’s a bit of a loophole. If you don’t have gear shift indicators, the legislation dictates where the gear change points occur. For example, on the continuous 30mph sections, the legislation dictates that you must be in 3rd gear. With autos, the car obviously decides what gear to be in and therefore follows different rules.
The manufacturers managed to change the rules such that if you have shift indicators, you’re allowed to ignore the predefined shift points and use your own ones based on the indicators. So now the indicators tell you to be in 4th at 30mph, and hence can achieve lower (official) fuel consumption figures

Gareth
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby Gareth » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:31 am

Horse wrote:Does anyone know how manufacturers decide the 'change' (up or down) revs?

A major factor in up shifts appears to be throttle position - you generally don't get change up suggestions with full throttle or no throttle. The other main factor must be engine load. These will be modified by other factors, such as whether the engine has reached normal operating temperature.

With light throttle and almost no load on the engine, the gearbox will want you to be in the highest possible gear commensurate with road speed, typical on a relatively straight and relatively flat road. Under those circumstances the engine is doing minimal work to maintain forward motion, so the delivery of almost no torque is appropriate.

As the steepness of an incline increases the gearbox will be suggesting lower gears, similarly when requiring more throttle to maintain speed through a series of bends.

The equivalent with a manual gearbox is to realise when a 'flexible' gear temporarily isn't required, (which could be for an extended period), and choosing the highest possible 'cruising' gear.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

sussex2
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby sussex2 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:58 pm

I do know that if I changed up on the advice of the system (in any car I've driven that had one) then I would not be driving safely. I would have no or little reserve of power and any kind of system of driving would fall apart.
In our MX5 with no such equipment I rarely get out of 2nd around town (nothing happens below 5k revs) and the vehicle responds better the way I drive it. I could hardly see the point in owning it otherwise.
The difference in fuel consumption is probably measured in UK spirits measures and because I am used to it, it is how I was trained, then I feel more safe. I also think this, hopefully, translates into fact, due to the increased awareness of surroundings.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Driving instructors and learners - do they drive like each other?

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:13 pm

Hmm, driven with a sensitive foot the Toyota IQ wants you in 5th just before 30mph! And this is a 3 cylinder 1.0 litre engine. As you can imagine if you were in that gear it is as responsive as a dead slug. :(
Mike Roberts


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