Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:59 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:... and I assume you tell your associates not to overtake in the zigzag area? (otherwise it would imply that you think there's a different law for bikers - which I'm sure you don't) :roll:

No we discuss the issue and that it is NOT ilegal to overtake/filter in the zigzags. ;)

The solution in all cases is not to pass the last vehicle before the crossing, moving or stationary, unless the last stationary one is stationary due to a queue in front of it across the crossing. And in the later case to only do so very carefully.

I think you may have misunderstood my original comment (although I'd agree it is poorly worded). The point I was making is that the last car before the crossing is usually the one controlling the speed of all behind it, NOT that you can overtake it. If you do as I say in the paragraph above you can still pass the queue up to the last vehicle. This means you must be going faster than the queue.

The reason filtering in zigzags comes up so often is that most people think you can't based on the HWC wording.
Last edited by GTR1400MAN on Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Roberts

mainbeam
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby mainbeam » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:26 pm

The Highway Code wording seems clear enough to me. Why would anyone think it applies to the whole queue?

I plan to stop at the crossing until I can see it is clear for me to cross. At that point I'm happy to accelerate ahead of the lead vehicle although to be compliant I should match its speed until we are clear of the crossing.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:47 pm

mainbeam wrote:The Highway Code wording seems clear enough to me. Why would anyone think it applies to the whole queue?

I can't find it right now but I'm sure in the past the HWC was not quite so precise in reflecting the actual law in this case. Many people believe it is illegal to overtake in the zigzags. As I say it often comes up in discussion with older riders so at some point since their introduction in the late 70s the message has not been clear.
Mike Roberts

Triquet
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby Triquet » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:50 am

I have to stop at a pedestrian crossing (of whatever flavour) maybe once a day on average. I'm not going to lose sleep over this issue. I just stop. Have patience my brethren and admire the scenery. :D

ancient
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby ancient » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:25 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:... and I assume you tell your associates not to overtake in the zigzag area? (otherwise it would imply that you think there's a different law for bikers - which I'm sure you don't) :roll:

No we discuss the issue and that it is NOT ilegal to overtake/filter in the zigzags. ;)

The solution in all cases is not to pass the last vehicle before the crossing, moving or stationary, unless the last stationary one is stationary due to a queue in front of it across the crossing. And in the later case to only do so very carefully.

I think you may have misunderstood my original comment (although I'd agree it is poorly worded). The point I was making is that the last car before the crossing is usually the one controlling the speed of all behind it, NOT that you can overtake it. If you do as I say in the paragraph above you can still pass the queue up to the last vehicle. This means you must be going faster than the queue.

The reason filtering in zigzags comes up so often is that most people think you can't based on the HWC wording.

Some years back, riding a motorcycle around Wandsworth one way system (wow! that was some years back :lol: ), the lane to the left of me was stationary with a police traffic vehicle (as I said, some years back!) the last car by the zebra. His lane was blocked beyond the crossing, my lane was clear; I checked there were no pedestrians on the crossing (or about to cross, I'm kind like that) and proceeded past him. Cue blue flashing and whoo-whoo noises. The overtake didn't allow me to make much progress that day.
Triquet wrote:I have to stop at a pedestrian crossing (of whatever flavour) maybe once a day on average. I'm not going to lose sleep over this issue. I just stop. Have patience my brethren and admire the scenery. :D

Agreed :D . Pedestrian crossings tend (on the whole) to be where there are lots of pedestrians. Since pedestrians are frequently unpredictable, I turn down the 'make progress' circuit and tune up the 'stay calm, keep safe and outguess them' circuits. Expecting pedestrians to obey rules which many will never have learned (there are fortunately, no exams to pass to be allowed to walk our streets), risks too much IMO.

crr003
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby crr003 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:07 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:
mainbeam wrote:The Highway Code wording seems clear enough to me. Why would anyone think it applies to the whole queue?

I can't find it right now but I'm sure in the past the HWC was not quite so precise in reflecting the actual law in this case. Many people believe it is illegal to overtake in the zigzags. As I say it often comes up in discussion with older riders so at some point since their introduction in the late 70s the message has not been clear.

HC 56 (1978):
"In the area marked by zigzag lines on the approach to a Zebra crossing, you must not overtake the moving motor vehicle nearest the crossing, or the leading vehicle which has stopped to give way to a pedestrian on the crossing. Even when there are no zigzags never overtake just before a Zebra crossing."
So more accurate than today's version. The last sentence - you wouldn't get a Zebra without zigzags these days, so not sure what that meant.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm

ancient wrote:Some years back, riding a motorcycle around Wandsworth one way system (wow! that was some years back :lol: ), the lane to the left of me was stationary with a police traffic vehicle (as I said, some years back!) the last car by the zebra. His lane was blocked beyond the crossing, my lane was clear; I checked there were no pedestrians on the crossing (or about to cross, I'm kind like that) and proceeded past him. Cue blue flashing and whoo-whoo noises. The overtake didn't allow me to make much progress that day.

Did he ticket you? What did he say?

Zebra crossing, no traffic lights, so I guess the debate was over why he was stopped. Pedestrians vs road blocked/queued.
Mike Roberts

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:18 pm

crr003 wrote:HC 56 (1978):
"In the area marked by zigzag lines on the approach to a Zebra crossing, you must not overtake the moving motor vehicle nearest the crossing, or the leading vehicle which has stopped to give way to a pedestrian on the crossing. Even when there are no zigzags never overtake just before a Zebra crossing."
So more accurate than today's version. The last sentence - you wouldn't get a Zebra without zigzags these days, so not sure what that meant.

So where has the widely held belief that you can't overtake in the zigzags come from? (Though I accept other then two laned ones it would be a rare possibility in a car.)
Mike Roberts

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Horse
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby Horse » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:46 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:
crr003 wrote:HC 56 (1978):
"In the area marked by zigzag lines on the approach to a Zebra crossing, you must not overtake the moving motor vehicle nearest the crossing, or the leading vehicle which has stopped to give way to a pedestrian on the crossing. Even when there are no zigzags never overtake just before a Zebra crossing."
So more accurate than today's version. The last sentence - you wouldn't get a Zebra without zigzags these days, so not sure what that meant.

So where has the widely held belief that you can't overtake in the zigzags come from? (Though I accept other then two laned ones it would be a rare possibility in a car.)


From this?

24.—(1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—
(a) to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction;
My own views. For better or worse :)

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:52 pm

Yeah but, no but ....

a) that's the legal document that very few of the public will have read

b) The un-quoted notes clarify what 'any other motor vehicle' actually means.
Mike Roberts


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