Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:25 pm

akirk wrote:So once there are no pedestrians on the crossing and the light is green, there is nothing to prohibit your passing?!

Except it has just become the last moving vehicle before the crossing. ;)

It's a timing thing, so I normally discuss with motorcycle associates that it could be illegal at the point you pass, but it may not. And you have no control over the other vehicle.

Semantics really, as if you ease off, look and go, where there are two ahead lanes, the likelihood of getting stopped are almost nil. Whereas the likelihood of getting stopped for filtering legally in single lane zigzags are much higher if a non-traffic car sees you.
Mike Roberts

crr003
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby crr003 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:01 am

Horse wrote:'Motorcycles' have been suggested as not obstructing view. Well that's plain daft - since when did bikes ever get left behind at a [ped controlled] traffic lights grand prix? :)

I've been searching for the bikers' exemption to HC 168.
I couldn't find one. ;)

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Horse
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby Horse » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:55 am

It's one of those things that you only get told about after the initiation :)

If you see a Met bike cop with a 'black rat' sticker on his bike, stop him and ask. He *might* tell you - but he will appreciate it if you give him a run first , give up too soon and he won't consider you worthy of the knowledge; )
My own views. For better or worse :)

ancient
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby ancient » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:51 pm

Within the bounds of a pedestrian crossing:
1. No overtaking a moving motor vehicle at all
2. No overtaking any vehicle (including a hand or pedal cycle or a carriage) if it is stationary whilst waiting for the light sequence or for pedestrians who currently have precedence over vehicles.

Simples really?

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:56 pm

ancient wrote:Within the bounds of a pedestrian crossing:
1. No overtaking a moving motor vehicle at all

So I can't pass all those vehicles crawling in lane 1 of 2 (in my direction), on approach to the crossing? I have to stop passing vehicles when I reach the zigzags? Really?
I can't filter past all those crawling cars on my motorcycle within the zigzags (single lane included)?
ancient wrote:2. No overtaking any vehicle (including a hand or pedal cycle or a carriage) if it is stationary whilst waiting for the light sequence or for pedestrians who currently have precedence over vehicles.

Even if it is stationary in a queue of other stationary vehicles?
ancient wrote:Simples really?

Is it? What about the bit that says the last vehicle before the crossing?
Mike Roberts

ancient
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby ancient » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:49 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:
ancient wrote:Within the bounds of a pedestrian crossing:
1. No overtaking a moving motor vehicle at all

So I can't pass all those vehicles crawling in lane 1 of 2 (in my direction), on approach to the crossing? I have to stop passing vehicles when I reach the zigzags? Really?
I can't filter past all those crawling cars on my motorcycle within the zigzags (single lane included)?

Correct.
Prohibition against vehicles overtaking at crossings

24.—(1) Whilst any motor vehicle (in this regulation called “the approaching vehicle”) or any part of it is within the limits of a controlled area and is proceeding towards the crossing, the driver of the vehicle shall not cause it or any part of it—

(a)to pass ahead of the foremost part of any other motor vehicle proceeding in the same direction;

It is what it says in bold, and the detail indeed forbids (within the "controlled area") allowing any part of your motor vehicle to pass ahead of the front of any motor vehicle moving in the same direction. The fact that most drivers of motor vehicles don't obey and generally get away with it is pretty irrelevant. Still looks simple to me. Once the vehicles in the other lanes stop because their further progress is impeded, you can (if your lane is otherwise clear) pass them until you reach:
GTR1400MAN wrote:
ancient wrote:2. No overtaking any vehicle (including a hand or pedal cycle or a carriage) if it is stationary whilst waiting for the light sequence or for pedestrians who currently have precedence over vehicles.

Even if it is stationary in a queue of other stationary vehicles?
ancient wrote:Simples really?

Is it? What about the bit that says the last vehicle before the crossing?

Any vehicles apart from that nearest the crossing will be stationary because they cannot pass the vehicle nearest the crossing: That is the vehicle which is waiting for the lights or for a pedestrian who has precedence.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:42 pm

See here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997 ... on/24/made

"the reference to a motor vehicle in sub-paragraph (a) is, in a case where more than one motor vehicle is proceeding in the same direction as the approaching vehicle in a controlled area, a reference to the motor vehicle nearest to the crossing"

"the reference to a stationary vehicle is, in a case where more than one vehicle is stationary in a controlled area for the purpose of complying with regulation 23, 25 or 26, a reference to the stationary vehicle nearest the crossing."

So the only relevant vehicles are the one stopped at the crossing either because the lights are red (or someone is on the crossing), or the last moving vehicle before the crossing. So you can pass any others.
Mike Roberts

ancient
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby ancient » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:59 pm

Well, I got 2(b) right then: Only the vehicle nearest the crossing can be stopped for that reason (the rest are stopped because they can't get past that one).
But yes, 2(a) is the usual legal mind redefining "any" as 'something that isn't "any"' :roll: .

Still says that you cannot roll past the vehicle stopped at the crossing (for the purposes of complying... etc), so not a place to assume you can keep rolling; particularly given the likelihood of people crossing either side of the official crossing (especially in crowded conditions), because the delays involved from knocking over a VRU are likely to make your progress slower overall.

See crossing, assume pedestrians likely present, aware they may not be (just) on the crossing itself, be prepared to stop within inches (and aware that in a car you usually cannot see the front of your wheels).

crr003
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby crr003 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:40 pm

ancient wrote:Still says that you cannot roll past the vehicle stopped at the crossing (for the purposes of complying... etc), so not a place to assume you can keep rolling; particularly given the likelihood of people crossing either side of the official crossing (especially in crowded conditions), because the delays involved from knocking over a VRU are likely to make your progress slower overall.

But referring back to the original RAC comment - it's not illegal to pass a stationary vehicle when the lights change in the absence of pedestrians actively on the crossing?
Let's not forget pedestrians have their own responsibilities under the law when dealing with crossings, so all the "what ifs" will just muddy the water in the case of an incident.
I realise it's only proper and correct to demonise the car driver, but if councils put in traffic light controlled crossings at at cost of £x,000, it's only reasonable that pedestrians obey their rules too.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Overtaking at pedestrian crossings

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:40 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:... if the traffic in the left lane is crawling and the second lane only has you in it, you can't proceed any faster than the last vehicle before the crossing ... which is clearly silly...

But is the law.
GTR1400MAN wrote:This comes up a lot in the bike world with filtering in the zigzags.

... and I assume you tell your associates not to overtake in the zigzag area? (otherwise it would imply that you think there's a different law for bikers - which I'm sure you don't) :roll:
Nick


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