Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

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EasyShifter
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Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby EasyShifter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:21 am

This incident happened to me earlier this week. I knew full-well what the legal position was, but under the pressure of a real situation that isn't always as much help as might be expected.
Here's what happened.
In a narrow one-way street I approached lights at a town-centre T junction in lane 1 to turn left, alongside a car in lane 2 waiting to turn right - all very proper. Then a police car with blue lights on appeared at the end of the street and came up behind. My understanding is that in that situation I should behave normally and leave it to the police driver to handle it - he’s the one with the exemptions! I didn’t like sitting in his way but that was the expected procedure as I understood it. Also, after the time I'd been there, plus the time he’d taken to reach me I was confident the lights would change at any moment anyway. So I concentrated on forward and lateral observation so I could clear the junction asap when the lights changed. Then from behind came not only the sound of a siren but two very firm horn notes, clearly saying, ‘Get out of my way’! I checked carefully and pulled cautiously across the stop line, into the cycles and pedestrian crossing area, until there was enough space for him to go through.
I knew from my own study of Roadcraft that sirens are supposed to be switched off in situations where the traffic in front is not able to respond, to avoid panicking drivers, so I had been caught on the hop by the mere fact that he used it at all - but the use of the standard horn as well really upped the anti and it put me off balance. Obviously I don’t have exemptions and if I’d panicked and not noticed something, resulting in an accident, I don’t expect for one cotton-picking moment that he would have taken responsibility! It was several minutes before I cleared my mind of all the racing thoughts.
Obviously, I’d hate it if he arrived too late and some harm came to someone because I was being pedantic - it was a no-win situation. But it does seem to me that I was bullied into what amounted to ‘noble cause risk taking’ which is rightly forbidden. Of course, had he been on foot and clearly directed me through to make way for a colleague then that would’ve been fine and legal. But I wasn’t happy with this at all.
After I got home, I emailed my IAM Masters mentor - himself a very experienced police class 1 - to ask for his view on it.

here's his reply, slightly edited to cut any information that might identify him as I don't have his permission to do that.

It is up to the police driver to wait if he cannot get through. A driver cannot be expected to break the law. If you go through a red traffic light to let a police car through and there just happens to be a camera on it you will get a ticket in the post.

I have a couple of talks on blue lights and one of them is to try and get people to see it from the police drivers aspect. The police driver is at risk if he uses the blues and two's incorrectly and causes an accident. If there was not way of getting through the blocked junction then he should have switched his two tones off so as to prevent someone being forced out onto the main road and possibly causing an accident. (Silent approach). Or he could have got out, done some traffic duty and cleared himself a space. You would have been covered then.

Roadcraft page 238 and HC Rule 219.

Reply ends - this is me again:

I've had one previous run-in with the police over an emergency driver (c20 years ago), when I safely pulled over to facilitate his overtake and he later said that overtaking me had caused him to hit a bus coming the other way 200 yards further down the road . . . (so why did he do the overtake? I asked - among other questions) After a long exchange of letters and a personal visit from the colleague who had been in the passenger seat of the police car (and privately told me that it was the driver's first real call since training and the red mist had come down), it was formally acknowledged in writing that I had not been as they had said 'involved' in but had merely witnessed the polac. Should I get a ticket in the post, then this might perhaps be the second example . . . ;)
Michael

martine
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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby martine » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:09 am

It is a tricky situation but remember the police can direct you as is needed...perhaps their call was particularly urgent and the use of the standard horn could be interpreted they were instructing you to move over the stop line?
Martin - Bristol Advanced Motorists: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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jont-
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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby jont- » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:16 am

Yet another situation where the law is an ass? In any sensible system it would allow for common sense for all those involved to make the decision about whether it's safe to make space or not. But if the law doesn't want to grant any exemptions for me to act sensibly, then society should have to live with that choice. I don't want to end up being prosecuted because we've written stupid laws. Of course like anything else it's also the problem of automated enforcement. If there was a police officer watching the junction, I doubt they would take any action against you, but when it's a camera there's no logic applied :headbang:

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby GTR1400MAN » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:26 am

Wasn't the 'two very firm horn notes' him trying to kill the horns? They are often wired to turn on/off with a standard horn press when in use, or so I'm told.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

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akirk
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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby akirk » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:13 am

ultimately you have no idea why the lights / sirens are on - it could be for a number of reasons...

one of the bits of logic behind not doing as you did is that as a 'normal driver' (and I know that you are not, bu the police driver doesn't know that) you are unlikely to have the level of experience and judgement to decide whether you can take the risk of e.g. crossing a red light...

I wouldn't have moved forwards - the police driver in his car has no visibility as to whether that would be safe for you - if he gets out and checks the traffic first and then directs you that is fine, but in this case he didn't, so I would have stayed - particularly in the knowledge you had considered that the lights would change soon - you might save him 20 seconds, but equally making a mistake could cause a pile up and delay him by far more...

and just think - he was probably on his way back for a tea break anyway :)

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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby Rolyan » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:54 am

I'm sure it was safe for you to do what you did, but there's a real issue with documented cases of drivers being prosecuted for passing through a red light (shown on the red light camera) when allowing an emergency vehicle through.

So for that reason, if I knew with complete certainty that there wasn't a red light camera, then I would definitely let them through if safe. If I knew with complete certainty that there was a red light camera, then I wouldn't let them through, regardless of safety. If I was unsure if there was a red light camera, then I'm not sure what I would do!

Whereas I want to be a responsible citizen, the last thing I want to be is prosecuted, and try to deal with the Courts (or even worse the PCC).

Tough decision for you, the main thing is are you happy with the decision that you took, becasue thats all that matters.

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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby martine » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:17 pm

Rolyan wrote:...there's a real issue with documented cases of drivers being prosecuted for passing through a red light (shown on the red light camera) when allowing an emergency vehicle through.


My understanding is there have been a handful of prosecutions for going through a red-light from the automated cameras but when challenged in court they have always been rescinded...unless you know otherwise?
Martin - Bristol Advanced Motorists: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby Rolyan » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:45 pm

martine wrote:
Rolyan wrote:...there's a real issue with documented cases of drivers being prosecuted for passing through a red light (shown on the red light camera) when allowing an emergency vehicle through.


My understanding is there have been a handful of prosecutions for going through a red-light from the automated cameras but when challenged in court they have always been rescinded...unless you know otherwise?

My only certain knowledge is really articles I've read on various driving forums, but some of those certainly claimed that the prosecution was successful, even when challenged. The drivers were prosecuted and had to pay up. Definitely not rescinded.

I accept that it is hearsay, but unfortunately it's strong enough to make drivers I know (and I believe some on here) refuse to go through a red light.

However, I would be happy for a Barrister to come on here and give factual case law to show that a driver cannot be prosecuted.

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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby martine » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:25 pm

Rolyan wrote:
martine wrote:
Rolyan wrote:...there's a real issue with documented cases of drivers being prosecuted for passing through a red light (shown on the red light camera) when allowing an emergency vehicle through.


My understanding is there have been a handful of prosecutions for going through a red-light from the automated cameras but when challenged in court they have always been rescinded...unless you know otherwise?

My only certain knowledge is really articles I've read on various driving forums, but some of those certainly claimed that the prosecution was successful, even when challenged. The drivers were prosecuted and had to pay up. Definitely not rescinded.

I accept that it is hearsay, but unfortunately it's strong enough to make drivers I know (and I believe some on here) refuse to go through a red light.

However, I would be happy for a Barrister to come on here and give factual case law to show that a driver cannot be prosecuted.

I don't think it's they cannot be prosecuted but in the rare situations driver's have, it doesn't stand up in court when the traffic light camera or police log show the situation. I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time :roll: ) but I don't know of any successful prosecutions (excluding those where the driver rolls-over and accepts an NIP).

Driving forums are a strange thing...I often read claims of drivers being caught by fixed speed camera for doing 32mph in a 30 but when I challenge it I have yet to see proof. The writers seem to fall back to: "yes my mate was done - he's reliable and I believe him" and then go on a rant about how it's so unfair and speed cameras are only there to make money etc. I know you can be done for any transgression of the speed limit but...

I met a driver who was outraged they were done doing 42 in a 40...until it was pointed out that particular road had a 30 limit... :roll:
Martin - Bristol Advanced Motorists: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

Postby Strangely Brown » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:16 pm

martine wrote:I don't think it's they cannot be prosecuted but in the rare situations driver's have, it doesn't stand up in court when the traffic light camera or police log show the situation. I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time :roll: ) but I don't know of any successful prosecutions (excluding those where the driver rolls-over and accepts an NIP).


It doesn't much matter whether the prosecution was successful or thrown out. The point is that the driver was prosecuted and had to defend themselves. That involves considerable inconvenience and cost. Why would anyone do that?

There has been similar silliness in Sussex.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/13345657 ... s/?ref=trn

and it's not the only time...

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14337233 ... s/?ref=mac


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