Blues and Twos and Traffic Lights

[GTR1400MAN]

..Since the Google car traveled along there the lines have been repainted and the cycle lanes are now marked by solid white lines.

Like this?

Yep, but back where I linked to. In fact anywhere there isn't a layby or side road.

[fungus]

How would you deal with this section of the A35 approaching Westbourne just West of Bournemouth. The bus lane in the link was longer when this incident occurred.

Drivers heading East have a bus lane to their left with a westbound ambulance on blues and twos overtaking a solid line of traffic on a busy Saturday morning. Eastbound traffic was also moving but solid. As you can see in this situation there is nowhere for the eastbound drivers to go except into the bus lane.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.72501 ... a=!3m1!1e3

Nigel.

[userLeft1]

He, like me and many others, has clear concerns about motorists being prosecuted and the councils general approach to the defence about assisting emergency vehicles. You do him a disservice by misrepresenting what he's said.

Your situation is different. You were instructed by a Police officer to get out of his way. You complied because - it appears -you felt intimidated, however, I think you should have complied because the instruction was clear and you believed that it was safe to comply with it.

[Rolyan]

He, like me and many others, has clear concerns about motorists being prosecuted and the councils general approach to the defence about assisting emergency vehicles. You do him a disservice by misrepresenting what he's said.

Your situation is different. You were instructed by a Police officer to get out of his way. You complied because - it appears -you felt intimidated, however, I think you should have complied because the instruction was clear and you believed that it was safe to comply with it.

You've mistaken me for the original poster.

I'm merely someone who, like Strangely Brown and others, disagrees with you about the requirement to move out of the way.

The Police driver did not instruct the driver to get out of the way; in fact he does not have authority to instruct you from behind the wheel to break the law, although he has exemptions himself. The requirement is clear, and reinforced by several Chief Police Officers over the years; the onus is on the police driver to accommodate drivers who are remaining within the law, not force/instruct them to break the law.

Some may choose to break the law to assist progress, but regardless of what you think, you are no more correct than those that remain in the law. You may think you are but it's just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less, with no legal or moral high ground. Which takes me back to my original point, that Strangely Brown was not making the generalised comment you suggested, but was in fact explaining why many disagree with your beliefs.

[userLeft1]

This is the problem with 'nerdy' advanced drivers learning rules, believing they know better, and being self-righteous in the face of common sense decision making.

Police rules are none of our business. A Police officer clearly indicating to you to move out of his way is obviously an instruction (as is Observing by IAM volunteers). No point in a semantical argument on this point.

There is no evidence that anyone has been prosecuted for complying with the instructions of a Police officer to get out of his way at traffic lights that involves the driver crossing the 'stop' line.

The driver has a choice. 1) Arrogantly, I think, forming the view that he has insufficient information to decide whether or not the Police driver is relying on common law rules or statutory exemptions to make his way through the lights and then refusing to move unless it is explained to him 2) Presuming that the Police officer has the authority to require him to move and complying with that instruction so as not to wilfully obstruct the Police officer in the course of his duty.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[jont-]

Presuming that the Police officer has the authority to require him to move and complying with that instruction so as not to wilfully obstruct the Police officer in the course of his duty.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Any more dangerous than a police officer in a vehicle assuming they /do/ have authority to bully a motorist out of their way?

[userLeft1]

Maybe not which is why the Police rules exist but as advanced drivers shouldn't we have the ability to move safely rather than reacting without thinking?

[Gareth]

There is no evidence that anyone has been prosecuted for complying with the instructions of a Police officer to get out of his way at traffic lights that involves the driver crossing the 'stop' line.

This is the sort of discussion that makes me doubt the veracity of your assertion.

[ancient]

Or maybe it would be safer for an AD to react as Police (should) expect any of the public to react, which is not to break the law?

I've seen red mist in police cars overtaking (e.g. two lane tunnel, in the outside lane ahead the car in front of the B&T stops, in inside lane I slow and sit behind the police car - I don't want to undertake when he may well swing in to pass; Police driver is sitting waving his hands and shouting, passenger the same. It took 3 - 4 minutes before they realised they could overtake inside safely). I've had an ambulance driver sit way too close behind on twisty country lanes with no opportunity to overtake and making it harder for me to safely pull over. When I found a wider section to pull out of the way, he went no faster than I had been going.

Emergency drivers make mistakes. If under pressure from such a driver, I made a 'safe but illegal' manoeuvre and the driver chose that moment to find another way through, this could well create an unsafe situation with two vehicles manoeuvring at the same time. Far better to wait and let them get on with what they are trained for, rather than arrogantly assuming what is their responsibility.

[akirk]

This is the problem with 'nerdy' advanced drivers learning rules, believing they know better, and being self-righteous in the face of common sense decision making.

Police rules are none of our business. A Police officer clearly indicating to you to move out of his way is obviously an instruction (as is Observing by IAM volunteers). No point in a semantical argument on this point.

There is no evidence that anyone has been prosecuted for complying with the instructions of a Police officer to get out of his way at traffic lights that involves the driver crossing the 'stop' line.

The driver has a choice. 1) Arrogantly, I think, forming the view that he has insufficient information to decide whether or not the Police driver is relying on common law rules or statutory exemptions to make his way through the lights and then refusing to move unless it is explained to him 2) Presuming that the Police officer has the authority to require him to move and complying with that instruction so as not to wilfully obstruct the Police officer in the course of his duty.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

To be fair this has nothing to do with advanced driving - other than the fact that actually some drivers on here are probably far more competent than the average bobby in a car with blue lights this is about simple rules that every driver should learn / know:
- you don't cross a red light
- a policeman can instruct you to take certain actions which otherwise you might not take - but can't do so from behind the wheel of a car behind you!

It is also important to remember that police training covers how they deal with this (from finding an alternative, e.g. up the other side of the road to switching off their siren and or lights and waiting) as far as I am aware that training doesn't include using the siren or lights to force a member of the public to break the law... So the starting point for a member of the public should be that the police driver will not be expecting them to cross the stop line / jump a red light / move into a hatched box / etc. and will make clear their need to if required (not by siren / horn / lights).

There is a continuing issue for emergency service drivers with public trying to second-guess their plans - stick to what is normal, make space where possible, let the professional manage the road

so, members of the public should not be jumping red lights or crossing stop lines unless specifically and verbally instructed to by a policeman - nothing to do with advanced driving, just what is expected - and if they do and the camera captures them their only defence could be that a constable specifically instructed them to move - a car behind with lights on is not such an instruction...

Alasdair