Just curious

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
devonutopia
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Re: Just curious

Postby devonutopia » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:47 pm

waremark wrote:
devonutopia wrote:" money changes hands"

Never happens in our group. :) All voluntary.

And membership subscriptions to the group is not driving instruction. :)

IAM or Rospa?

Both will claim that all payments made are for matters other than the giving of instruction. I think this claim is a little more challenging for IAM than for Rospa. I find it particularly difficult to understand the claim in the case of Mentored Masters, and the price difference from Masters without mentoring.


It's RoSPA group (south Devon)

The only money coming in to the group is subscriptions and tutors do all their work voluntarily. Associates use their own vehicles so the only cost to the tutor is their time really. And knowing most of the tutors in my group, they are very passionate about what is done (the one who tutored me sure was) and they don't mind the time spent passing on their knowledge and skills.

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Strangely Brown
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Location: Sussex

Re: Just curious

Postby Strangely Brown » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:07 pm

And that right there is the difference between IAM and RoSPA. The IAM used to have the same model but at some point someone decided that it would be better (more profitable?) to package the training and advanced test as the "Skill for Life" course and sell it directly from IAM HQ. The problem is that they are using non-ADIs to deliver a paid-for product which is, by any definition, a course of driving instruction.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Location: Swindon

Re: Just curious

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:10 pm

Your own group seem to have done a pretty terrible job of explaining to you how it works, which is a shame.

RoSPA has tutors and advanced tutors. The IAM has local observers and national observers. Broadly, they do the same thing for their respective organisations. Nobody in either is called an instructor, or at least, they certainly shouldn't be.

Both levels train associates (members of the public). The higher level is responsible for training the first level. In IAM, both levels are monitored and accredited by an external body. In RoSPA, advanced tutors are examined by the local examiners, using a test designed to assess both driving skills, tuition skills and knowledge.

Both use mostly serving or former Police officers with a recent(ish) advanced certificate as examiners. There are a very few examiners from other emergency services and even a very small number of civilians.

Within groups there is usually an individual who takes the responsibility for managing the dissemination of knowledge, training the higher level of tutor / observer, and running training for the tuition group as a whole. In RoSPA that's usually called the Training Officer (I have that title in Wiltshire). In IAM I believe it's still called Chief Observer.

No tutor / observer should ever accept money from a candidate, except, as Mike says above, for fuel expenses in motorcycle tuition, where the observer has to ride their own bike while observing the candidate. This is not a universal practice.
Nick

hir
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Re: Just curious

Postby hir » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:19 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:...

No tutor / observer should ever accept money from a candidate, except, as Mike says above, for fuel expenses in motorcycle tuition, where the observer has to ride their own bike while observing the candidate. This is not a universal practice.


Some say... that biker persons get their payment in bacon butties, all we know is that car persons don't even get a cup of tea. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Just curious

Postby GTR1400MAN » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:45 pm

Bacon butties or coffee & walnut cake, and a nice latte :)

Ice cream is good too!

Image Image Image
Click on pics for bigger ones.
Mike Roberts

martine
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Re: Just curious

Postby martine » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:51 pm

Nom-nom...
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

waremark
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Re: Just curious

Postby waremark » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:27 pm

hir wrote:
Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:...

No tutor / observer should ever accept money from a candidate, except, as Mike says above, for fuel expenses in motorcycle tuition, where the observer has to ride their own bike while observing the candidate. This is not a universal practice.


Some say... that biker persons get their payment in bacon butties, all we know is that car persons don't even get a cup of tea. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bottle of wine for car observers after a successful test, perhaps?

By the way, IAM RoadSmart have dropped the term Skill for Life since their recent rebranding, and call their product the Advanced Driving Course. They tell you that:

'Our skilled experts, all Institute of the Motor Industry (IMI) qualified, will take you through a number of observed drives in your own car,' and make it clear that this is the main part of the Advanced Driving Course.

They do tell you that these experts are volunteers, but I am very uncertain whether the legality defence is that the volunteers are not giving instruction (certainly challenging) or that the cost of the course does not include any element for the drives with an expert. The website certainly makes it look as though the drives are part of what the customer is being asked to pay £149 for.

By the way, exploring the website just now I see that when you buy you are asked: 'Please let us know your date of birth to help us allocate a suitable coach for you.' My group, the largest in the country, allocates only by geography, not by age, and in any event has the Associate's full details before allocating an observer. Does anyone know how this age information is used elsewhere? And how should it be used? My current Associate is younger than my children, does that make me an unsuitable Observer?

martine
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Re: Just curious

Postby martine » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:57 am

waremark wrote:...Does anyone know how this age information is used elsewhere? And how should it be used? My current Associate is younger than my children, does that make me an unsuitable Observer?

In Bristol we offer a full refund to drivers under 25.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

Rolyan
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Re: Just curious

Postby Rolyan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:32 am

Are all the 'experts' qualified by the IMI? I thought that only applies to National Observers. If you get a local observer they have not been qualified by the IMI, surely.

We allocate on location mainly. Age shouldn't make a difference, although I can see how an ancient wrinkly may have a perception about an extremely young observer, that would require managing.

As regards instruction and payment, it really is laughable that some try linguistic gymnastics and semantic smokescreen to try to suggest that it isn't instruction. Of course it is. I wonder if these people who say it have ever sat with an observer. Instruction takes place. The payment issue is also fairly clear, most reasonably minded people would interpret their payment as paying for a course of instruction. What a ripoff if it wasn't. Lets be honest, the only reason we get away with it is that the ADIs have said they are not prepared to have a test case, as they think there would only be losers. They've said this numerous times, and if they ever get bolshie, it won't matter what whispers come from the top executive suite of head office.

God bless the ADIs, that's what I say. Their indifference, and that of the general public, means we get away with it. It's a good job too, I wouldn't have any wine for Christmas otherwise.

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Horse
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Re: Just curious

Postby Horse » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:15 am

The irony is that 'proper' coaching doesn't involve telling, but involves the subject (for want of another term not ending in -ee ;) ) doing the work to find solutions by responding to careful questioning (which needn't require expert subject knowledge on the part of the coach).
My own views. For better or worse :)


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