Just curious

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
Rolyan
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Re: Just curious

Postby Rolyan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:35 am

Horse wrote:The irony is that 'proper' coaching doesn't involve telling, but involves the subject (for want of another term not ending in -ee ;) ) doing the work to find solutions by responding to careful questioning (which needn't require expert subject knowledge on the part of the coach).

Indeed, although in my experience the best coaches do have expert knowledge.

I think your average Joe (including anyone signing up to an advanced motoring course) would have trouble separating coaching, teaching, instructing etc. Particularly as each one often incorporates bits of the others. Coaching often starts with a little instruction, good instruction often involves coaching, the best teachers are often great coaches etc.

Hopefully the ADIs are too busy to be worried about us. Nothing to see here, move along, no instruction taking place today thank you.

Astraist
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Re: Just curious

Postby Astraist » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:38 am

Horse wrote:The irony is that 'proper' coaching doesn't involve telling, but involves the subject (for want of another term not ending in -ee ;) ) doing the work to find solutions by responding to careful questioning (which needn't require expert subject knowledge on the part of the coach).


Yes, but coaching for driver development tends not to be pure coaching, but rather something a bit more prescriptive. Essentially, prescriptive coaching is a combination of coaching and instruction.

I have no problem combining the two. If I am instructing but am also demonstrating and explaining the reasoning behind it all, than the difference to coaching isn't that big anyway.

Because we tend to cover a lot of ground in an advanced driving tuition (whereas a coach asks the client what he wants to focus on and looks only at that specific aspect), I tend to coach the bits of the day that are most important, complex or those that the client expresses particular interest at enhancing in his or her driving. The rest tends to be instructed.
Last edited by Astraist on Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Just curious

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:40 am

When asked, DVSA said they they consider "instruction" to be any form of "knowledge transfer" or "imparting of knowledge". That includes "coaching".

An "observer" in the strict sense of the word would be absolutely pointless, so, since they must provide advice and guidance in order to be of any value at all they are, by definition, "instructing".

There really is no wiggle room. If money (or money's worth) changes hands, then it requires an ADI.

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superplum
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Re: Just curious

Postby superplum » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:44 am

Smeeagain wrote: RoSPA seems to refer to them as tutors. Their guidelines for setting up a nee group mentions the recruitment of tutors whilst referring to a handbook on Advanced Driving Instruction ..... :D


If you read a little further (Appendix 5), you will find:

Approved Tutors
The entry level requirement here is a current silver grade although some Groups may set this at gold grade. The Approved Tutor must have a good working knowledge of The Highway Code and Roadcraft as the tuition delivered will rest on these books.
Tutorial skills
The candidate must have the ability to:
 communicate with associate members (known hereafter as ‘pupils’ for brevity and clarity) and to explain what is required,
 plan and deliver a lesson, to set learning objectives and structure the lesson with a logical plan that illustrates pupil/tutor interaction,
 deliver the prepared lesson plan clearly and correctly,
 assess the pupil’s understanding and to verify that learning has taken place by means of suitable questions,
 provide feedback and specific objectives,
 answer the pupil’s questions correctly and clearly with due regard for the Highway Code, Roadcraft and the Test Guidelines.
The candidate must be able to demonstrate an ability to tutor at the appropriate level and to give a commentary drive.
The candidate should be able to demonstrate a range of skills to assess pupil performance against the standard of the Advanced Test. An important part of tuition for the advanced test is the ability to diagnose and analyse faults, followed by a plan to correct them.

My group only uses Gold grades and only one tutor is an ADI, and no money passes hands for tuition - free training is available for group members.

8-)

waremark
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Re: Just curious

Postby waremark » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:57 am

martine wrote:
waremark wrote:...Does anyone know how this age information is used elsewhere? And how should it be used? My current Associate is younger than my children, does that make me an unsuitable Observer?

In Bristol we offer a full refund to drivers under 25.

Admirable - but nothing to do with allocation of a suitable coach, as suggested by the IAM Roadsmart online purchase process. And you probably base your refund on more detailed Associate information than that collected during the online purchase.

waremark
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Re: Just curious

Postby waremark » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:09 pm

superplum wrote:If you read a little further (Appendix 5), you will find:

Approved Tutors ......


My group only uses Gold grades and only one tutor is an ADI, and no money passes hands for tuition - free training is available for group members.

8-)

Impressive stuff. So it is quite clear that Rospa ADAR make no pretense that tutors do not give instruction. In the case of Rospa, it is credible that the instruction is given for free.

In the case of IAM Roadsmart where the Associate makes a single payment for an Advanced Driving Course, the notion that the observed drives are given for free is a slightly tougher 'sell'. As mentioned many times, the fact that no part of a payment made reaches an instructor is not relevant to the question of whether instruction is being given for money or for money's worth.

waremark
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Re: Just curious

Postby waremark » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:32 pm

From the long (41 page) and rather good IAM Observer Qualification and Assessment document it is clear that IAM also have dropped any argument that instruction is not given. This is a brief extract from an extensive set of requirements for what an Observer has to be able to do:

1. Assist the Associate to learn using a suitable
guidance technique, either on the move or when
at rest. For example:
 Demonstration: to show how a particular
skill is carried out;
 Instruction: where you explain what to do
in a step by step fashion;
 Coaching: where the Associate carries out
the task on their own, whilst you monitor
the performance and assist if required;

Someone queried whether Local Observers as well as National Observers are IMI Qualified. Both are qualified in accordance with an IMI approved process; the fact that Local Observers are assessed by a local Assessor whereas Nationals are Assessed by a Staff Examiner (that's what the document calls them, the job title has since changed) does not prevent Locals from being IMI Qualified. The only caveat on this is that group qualified observers (old system) still have grandfather rights until next year, after which all observers will have to be IMI qualified.

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Just curious

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:02 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:There really is no wiggle room. If money (or money's worth) changes hands, then it requires an ADI.

I take it you and your RoSPA tutor (you are RoSPA Gold, right?) drove around in lofty silence, laughing at the idiocy of those who dare to do observer voluntary work? Or perhaps you made sure you had a tutor who was also an ADI? (out of interest, the ADIs who come for advanced tuition often need more work than the average Joe to make then any use, and often have no knowledge of fairly basic techniques like rev-matching or block changing).

Or maybe, recognising the moral dilemma, you chose not to have a tutor at all. Well done.

Oh, I just realised - you are an ADI yourself, and taught yourself :lol:
Nick

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Strangely Brown
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Re: Just curious

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:18 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
Strangely Brown wrote:There really is no wiggle room. If money (or money's worth) changes hands, then it requires an ADI.

I take it you and your RoSPA tutor (you are RoSPA Gold, right?) drove around in lofty silence, laughing at the idiocy of those who dare to do observer voluntary work?


I never had any tuition from any IAM group. By the time I joined the local IAM group, I had already passed their test. I never had any association with any RoSPA group either. At the time that I would have done so the local group was almost exclusively motorcycles.

I took the IAM test after one observed drive / lesson by a BSM ADI and one drive out with a friend who had also passed the IAM test "cold". I took the RoSPA test soon after that and got a silver. I joined the local IAM group some time after those tests and, at that time, the payment made was along the "(small) subs for group membership" model with as much training as you like free for group members.

The point of my statement was that in the new IAM model, money changes hands specifically for a course of training/instruction.

In case there is some confusion, I think that people giving up their spare time to help others is great. I did it myself for a number of years and I am still more than happy to help anyone that asks, free, gratis, for nothing, nowt, nada. I have no problem with observers/tutors coaching/instructing/teaching/advising for anyone who wants to learn (call them/it whatever you like). I have no problem with local groups charging a nominal membership fee (subs) and providing as much assistance FoC as anyone wants.

My problem is the commercial selling of a product that requires a particular qualification to deliver legally but is provided through the services of unpaid, unqualified, volunteers instead.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Or perhaps you made sure you had a tutor who was also an ADI?


See above, but back then, it wasn't something that I even thought about. I didn't know any more about it then than someone new to AD could be reasonably expected to know now.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:(out of interest, the ADIs who come for advanced tuition often need more work than the average Joe to make then any use, and often have no knowledge of fairly basic techniques like rev-matching or block changing).


I completely understand. One of the most difficult associates that I had as an IAM observer was an ADI. Getting him to do more than 40mph on a rural NSL was a nightmare. In fact, IIRC, he was reluctant to adopt anything other than what he already "knew". Of course, that was probably as much my failure to "teach" as it was his reluctance to learn.

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Or maybe, recognising the moral dilemma, you chose not to have a tutor at all. Well done.


See above. :)

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:Oh, I just realised - you are an ADI yourself, and taught yourself :lol:


I am not an ADI, but you're not far off. I didn't really get hooked until after the IAM test and first RoSPA test. That was when I joined the local IAM group and discovered their access to the local police driving school. Only then did I really start to see what was possible and how I wanted to drive.

mainbeam
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Re: Just curious

Postby mainbeam » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:17 pm

If Porsche or the like offers free driving instruction to purchasers of their cars - and only purchasers of their cars - who hold a full licence and in order to assist them in driving a high-performance car is that paid-for instruction that requires the giver of the instruction to be registered notwithstanding that the lessons are free to recipient?


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