ROSPA - "you need a police background to get gold"

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hir
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby hir » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:27 am

Smeeagain wrote:Thank you for all your replies.

...
The comments could be construed not so much as you HAVE to have a police background but rather you need to be of the standard of a police driver. But either way, as far as I can establish, both comments aren't accurate, and by that I mean Rospa Gold standard may well be the same/similar as police driver but it isn't the stated criteria.

...


One of the criteria for a Gold award that was often quoted by our local RoSPA examiners about 15 years ago was that they were... "looking for someone whose driving, in their opinion, indicated that they had the potential to do well on a police advanced course"

We should be cautious when examiners use phrases such as... "need to be of the standard of a police driver", because it raises the question of which particular standard of police driving is the examiner referring to?

Our erstwhile examiners, now retired, implied that Gold would be awarded to an associate who exhibited the standard of driving of a police driver who had successfully completed the response course [without sirens, lights or speed exemption, of course]. Hence their regard for ..."someone whose driving indicated that, in their opinion, they had the potential to do well on a police advance course".

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EasyShifter
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby EasyShifter » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:31 am

The examiner was unequivocally wrong about the need for a police background to get gold, and it's also quite unsupportable for another examiner to say, 'I don't hand out golds on the first test'. If the drive is gold standard then gold it must be - and I got gold on my first drive without a police background (but with a thorough study of Roadcraft).
ON the subject of travel to a different area, there are a few points.
1. IN fairness to the examiner, there's a lot more to planning a good test route than reading road map as any observer will testify. One really does have to drive the route to check out the subtleties of road/likelhy traffic conditions, surfaces, bends etc. - and even in a familiar area it can take several drives before it's right, especially the time factor. That's a big ask for an examiner with other commitments who probably has to drive an hour just to get to the locality and certainly isn't being paid a particularly enviable rate. I should not think it unfair to be asked to drive to the examiner, or to accept a postponement until a local one is available.

2. It's also very important for the examiner to have good local knowledge. It may become necessary at any point to depart form the expected route - e.g. when the road is blocked by an accident or unplanned emergency roadworks. It may also be helpful to know that although road x is fine for 20 hours of the day it's a nightmare at particular times when a local factory workforce is changing shifts!

3. Being tested on familiar roads isn't an unmixed blessing. I always find that on roads I don't know my observation is sharpened and my commentary improves dramatically as I have to respond to the new stimuli rather than just adapting a familiar (and somewhat tired) script. I'm looking forward to a holiday in the Lake district as an opportunity to practise on unfamiliar roads before my upcoming IAM Masters takes place in who-knows-where. :D

It does sound as if there are problems with the varying attitudes of some examiners and that's something RoADAR needs to get sorted. :roll:
Michael

martine
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby martine » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:59 am

It seems both organisations have problems with consistency with how examiners approach the test. It's understandably difficult bearing in mind different police areas have different standards themselves. The IAM is considering moving away from solely accepting police trained examiners. I suspect we are on the cusp of quite large changes around Advanced Driving - for all sorts of reasons.
Martin - Bristol Advanced Motorists: IMI National Observer, Group Secretary, Masters (dist), DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Strangely Brown
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby Strangely Brown » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:42 am

fungus wrote:... although you may feel that it's an advantage taking a test on roads that you know, it shouldn't be a problem on unknown roads if you are up to standard. This may seem a harsh statement, but basically drive the road you see, not the road you know.


^^^^
This.

If you can only drive up to standard on familiar roads then, quite bluntly, you are not up to standard. If you are up to standard then the test route is irrelevant.

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EasyShifter
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby EasyShifter » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:53 am

hir wrote:One of the criteria for a Gold award that was often quoted by our local RoSPA examiners about 15 years ago was that they were... "looking for someone whose driving, in their opinion, indicated that they had the potential to do well on a police advanced course"

We should be cautious when examiners use phrases such as... "need to be of the standard of a police driver", because it raises the question of which particular standard of police driving is the examiner referring to?

Our erstwhile examiners, now retired, implied that Gold would be awarded to an associate who exhibited the standard of driving of a police driver who had successfully completed the response course [without sirens, lights or speed exemption, of course]. Hence their regard for ..."someone whose driving indicated that, in their opinion, they had the potential to do well on a police advance course".


That reference to someone who would do well on a police advanced course is on the ROADAR website and I think it's a pretty good guide to what the expectations should be - so a RoADAR gold would be equivalent to the entry level for a police advanced course, not the outcome.
When I joined the IAM in 1971 the general feeling in the Birmingham group that I joined was that the IAM was about equal to a police class 3 (under the then current system of classifying) while a panda car driver (in an Austin/Morris 1300 and not allowed to drive under blue lights) was a 4.
All the grading systems have since changed of course but as stated, phrases like 'standard of a police driver' are still pretty vague.
Also, in comparing civilian (whether RoSPA) or IAM) with police advanced drivers one does need to be realistic. While a good civilian advanced driver might well drive for an hour or so in a normal car and at normal speeds to the same general standard, the police advanced driver has to be able to do it for several hours at a time while also managing all the other demands of operational policing, the additional technology in the car, etc. - and might quite possibly be called upon to undertake a demanding pursuit at the end of a taxing and exhausting shift.
Michael

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:38 am

I have to say I never understand this "I don't know the roads". Drive/ride to the system and it doesn't matter what road you are on. I never take my associates on roads/routes I know our local examiner uses (though he mixes his up all the time). As an Observer it can be a useful exercise to take the Associate on a route that passes the Associate's address. Often the standard of application of the system will diminish or fade away!

Drive/ride what is in front of you. It probably isn't the same as it was yesterday.

As for examiners having pet preferences it happens in both organisations, though the IAM are working hard to level the playing field.

Three ROSPA tests and one IAM over the last decade and none have been on roads I know, and that's with the tests being conducted in Suffolk, my home county.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

Smeeagain
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby Smeeagain » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:53 am

Strangely Brown wrote:
fungus wrote:... although you may feel that it's an advantage taking a test on roads that you know, it shouldn't be a problem on unknown roads if you are up to standard. This may seem a harsh statement, but basically drive the road you see, not the road you know.


^^^^
This.

If you can only drive up to standard on familiar roads then, quite bluntly, you are not up to standard. If you are up to standard then the test route is irrelevant.


Thanks to everyone for their additional comments. Re the point above, and others who've commented on the location, I totally agree, and I belive the phrase I used in my original post was along the lines of 'I accept that if youre good enough, then youre good enough', (regardless of the road). I did also go on to say that that wasn't the thrust of my post. However several folk have picked up on this point so I've obviously not made my point clearly about being tested elsewhere.
So let me elaborate - the point I was trying to make their, was the same as the rest of the post - it's about stated criteria. I was told when I signed up I'd be assigned a tutor 'in my area' and upon application for a test i'd be assigned a local examiner 'in my area'. Yes I know things change, people go off sick etc
Now contrast that with the stated criteria of IAM Masters and they actually state that you will be tested on roads that you're not familiar with and so you 'may be required to travel some distance'
So all Im saying is they should cover themselves and stat that your test 'may not be' taken in your area. We're talking about a Royal Society here so it should all be a high standard.
And as I say the location wasnt the main thrust of the post
- For absolute clarification and the avoidance of confusion, I accept that I should be capable of being tested anywhere and am fine with that. As it happens Im moving house after my test and as Im moving to the Inner Hebrides, I rather suspect my retest wont be on the island and will therefore almost definitely be on roads Ive never driven on !

Smeeagain
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby Smeeagain » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:04 pm

superplum wrote:smeeagain

You have a PM


Nothing received?

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superplum
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby superplum » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:04 pm

Sorry, but it's disappeared completely (!) but the content has been superseded by later posts so I won't bother to repeat it.

Good luck with the test.

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Bumblebee16
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Re: ROSPA - "you need a place background to get gold"

Postby Bumblebee16 » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:49 am

Triquet wrote:I feel your worry, but don't let it get to you. Relax and give it your best shot. :gear:


Ditto Triquet

Put all of this behind you and enjoy the experience from now on.

Good luck in your test - let us know how you get on.

Debbie


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