Roundabout indicating

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
martine
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby martine » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:08 pm

Pontoneer wrote: have noticed it to be commonplace amongst driving school cars , as well as younger drivers in general , so I presume it is something that is being wrongly taught to novices .

I don't know any ADI's who would teach this. If a learner were to do it on test, it would attract a fault.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

fungus
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby fungus » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:10 pm

martine wrote:
Pontoneer wrote: have noticed it to be commonplace amongst driving school cars , as well as younger drivers in general , so I presume it is something that is being wrongly taught to novices .

I don't know any ADI's who would teach this. If a learner were to do it on test, it would attract a fault.


Yes, and probably a test fail. That is a misleading signal.

Learners are taught to use the appropriate lane, usually the left lane when going ahead unless road markings show otherwise. No signal on approach, and give a breakaway/exit signal as they are passing their penultimate exit.

They are, or should be taught to check the mirrors, and, if necessary give a life saver shoulder check to assess the position of other vehicles before signaling to exit. If there is danger of conflict due to, for instance, a driver alongside using the left lane to go ahead when it is marked for a left turn and the right lane is the ahead lane, they should be taught to then signal right and carry on around the roundabout. I know this is not ideal, but in the example I have given it avoids conflict with the car to the left. The situation could be very different though if the roundabout had three approach lanes marked as follows. Left lane, left turn. Centre lane, ahead. Right lane, right turn. Itould all be a bit messy. We're now back to Stressed Daves' rule of not being alongside another vehicle on a roundabout.

They would also be taught to signal left for going ahead if it was the first exit and an approaching driver would benefit from a signal.

Nigel.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:44 pm

Pontoneer wrote:Regardless of the fact that they may be seldom seen these days , such signals are still 'correct' and 'legal' , so are a valid means of communicating with other road users . Admittedly some signals will be less readily understood than others , but that is a failing of the recipient and not the giver .

So, having already acknowledged that many drivers won't know what they mean, why would you continue to use them. You can't mind read if the intended recipient will understand.

Highway Code 1931 Scroll to the bottom for arm signals. I haven't ever waved a whip in the air! ;) :)
Mike Roberts

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Mr Cholmondeley-Warner
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:14 pm

fungus wrote:
martine wrote:
Pontoneer wrote: have noticed it to be commonplace amongst driving school cars , as well as younger drivers in general , so I presume it is something that is being wrongly taught to novices .

I don't know any ADI's who would teach this. If a learner were to do it on test, it would attract a fault.


Yes, and probably a test fail. That is a misleading signal.

No matter how much ye ADIs do protest, it's apparent from the comments that there is a community of thy brethren out there still teaching this nonsense, even if ye be not among them.
Nick

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:22 pm

Pontoneer wrote:Oh , and lastly , on this subject , those drivers who approach a roundabout trafficating right , when intending to go straight ahead , are a pet hate of mine too . [... snip ...] It also irks me that a car in front may trafficate right on the approach to a roundabout , at which I intend to go straight ahead.

When was the last time you saw these regularly in use on the road? ;)

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Mike Roberts

Pontoneer
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby Pontoneer » Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:06 am

I agree with those above re the correct procedures for roundabouts as per HC , and the wrongness of what I have seen some drivers ( including occupants of liveried driving school cars ) doing .

Re the hand signals : I think a right arm extended outwards , palm open and vertical , is very obviously a right turn signal , and that even the dimmest follower would recognise it for what it is , especially when used to reinforce an earlier given direction indicator/trafficator signal which is still operating .

The ' I intend to slow down or stop ' arm signal is , I think , also fairly intuitive , especially when the vehicle has already started to slow by acceleration sense , and by the time it is given , will be gently on the brakes with brake lights showing ; the advantage of the arm signal is that it ought to convey that the slowing/stopping is a deliberate action , where a turn signal would be inappropriate , and also that it ought to be visible to following traffic beyond the vehicle immediately behind , who may be the only one able to see brake lights ( or any other lights ) on my car .

I don't think lack of understanding on the part of some other drivers should be a reason not to give additional signals ( where the more commonly given ones have already been given , or where something has gone wrong with the signalling devices on a car ) , but it should certainly be a reason to exercise caution and not to rely totally on them .

Use of terminology : when I did my AD training back in the late 70's / early 80's , the police commentary always used the word 'trafficate' or the word 'trafficator' because it was a simple and quite unambiguous term to denote a direction signalling device or its use , even if that device was in fact a flashing light on the corner of the car as opposed to a mechanical semaphore lever which popped out of the B pillar :D I still use the term in commentary and in writing even today as it is still clear and unambiguous , compared to 'signal' or 'indicate' - the former of which could mean any number of different actions , the latter slightly less so .

As for waving a whip in the air .... I must admit that one is new to me ( my collection of HC printed copies only goes back to the 1950's ) but if I saw a carriage driver doing it ( and there are annual equestrian events which take place on one of the estates a few miles fro my home ) I think the meaning would be intuitive and I am sure I would know what the meaning was ( thank you anyway for the clarification as one never stops learning ) . Living in the countryside , there are a fair number of horseback riders locally who use the country lanes , and short stretches of the main roads to access them , and who generally give the same hand/arm signals that a cyclist or motorcyclist would . Thankfully the elevated position of horse riders , usually accompanied by hi-viz attire , not only gives them a good view of their surroundings , but makes them easy to see over the top of hedgerows when approaching from around a bend .

crr003
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby crr003 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:03 pm

Pontoneer wrote:It is interesting , too , that a lot of hand signals have been dropped from HC , and you have to go back quite a few editions before you will see the signals given to an officer on points duty ( how many would know the correct signal for 'I intend to turn left' to be given by a car driver to an officer on points duty' ? ) .

The arm signals are still there, page 104?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... ed-persons

Pontoneer wrote:I still think hand signals ought to be part of the driving test , because modern cars with their increasing electronic complexity have greater potential for unreliability than simpler , older ones - and lighting faults are one of the most commonplace and visible vehicle defects I notice on a regular basis .

Arm signals are still in the recommended literature for learner drivers. I don't know if there are any theory test questions. Their use and meaning should be covered because other road users (bicyclists/motorcyclists/horse people) are supposed to use them.

crr003
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby crr003 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:17 pm

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:
fungus wrote:
martine wrote:
Pontoneer wrote: have noticed it to be commonplace amongst driving school cars , as well as younger drivers in general , so I presume it is something that is being wrongly taught to novices .

I don't know any ADI's who would teach this. If a learner were to do it on test, it would attract a fault.


Yes, and probably a test fail. That is a misleading signal.

No matter how much ye ADIs do protest, it's apparent from the comments that there is a community of thy brethren out there still teaching this nonsense, even if ye be not among them.

Can't argue with logic like that! Someone's seen a learner car do something they don't understand/approve of, so there are bad ADIs teaching.
Reminds me of the Python scene:
http://lexx.thebruce.net/poem/monty.html

Was the vehicle being used by the ADI's partner to get a bottle of milk?
Was the vehicle being used by a pupil on a mock/real test?
What was the layout of the R/A? Some ADIs teach the 12 o'clock "rule" so a 1 pm exit would be treated as a right turn (right signal), whereas the locals treat it as straight ahead (no signal).

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Horse
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby Horse » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:25 pm

Pontoneer wrote: The ' I intend to slow down or stop ' arm signal is , I think , also fairly intuitive , especially when the vehicle has already started to slow by acceleration sense , and by the time it is given , will be gently on the brakes with brake lights showing ; the advantage of the arm signal is that it ought to convey that the slowing/stopping is a deliberate action


Ah, the 'dying swan' :)

Great for motorcyclists, where the right hand typically controls throttle (so giving the hand signal means you're likely to slow down) and front brake (so you're not going to slow much).

T&Cs apply: some riders use throttle lock screws, some bikes have foot-operated linked brakes, some bikes slow dramatically with the throttle closed - enough to catch out following drivers.
My own views. For better or worse :)

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Roundabout indicating

Postby GTR1400MAN » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:58 pm

crr003 wrote:Their use and meaning should be covered because other road users (bicyclists/motorcyclists/horse people) are supposed to use them.

Some of us do, but not those full arm things in the HWC. ;) Full arm is a great way to get buffeted about on a bike at speed. Just how windmills work! Instead, I (and many others), use half arm signals (forearm).

Horse wrote:Great for motorcyclists, where the right hand typically controls throttle (so giving the hand signal means you're likely to slow down) and front brake (so you're not going to slow much).

T&Cs apply: some riders use throttle lock screws, some bikes have foot-operated linked brakes, some bikes slow dramatically with the throttle closed - enough to catch out following drivers.

If a particular bike slows too much on throttle alone, there is always the option to declutch and use a little rear brake. Blending in some brakes is always a good idea in any case as that turns the brake light on (probably more useful than the arm signal).
Mike Roberts


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