Edmund Kean wrote:It is my belief that having transitioned to the offside, I am still ‘intending’ to overtake and accordingly my indicator should be activated signalling and telegraphing as such. Only until I am safely alongside or passed the vehicle, does the status of intention change to that of overtaking - in other words the intention has been realised into a satisfactory action or manoeuvre and the indicator can now be cancelled.
I'm fairly sure I understand your point of view - your words clearly explain what you believe.
I should still like to better understand the thinking ...
- from the time of crossing the line in moving out, to point of having passed, who benefits from the continued signalling?
- in your opinion, is this how it should always be done?
As a result of this discussion I've been re-reading one of my copies of
Roadcraft - the 2013 edition, 2016 printing. The chapter on overtaking makes it abundantly clear that, while the book provides general advice, overtaking technique is best learned under guidance in a moving vehicle.
Edmund Kean wrote:did you use the John Lyon procedure before your time in his company and if you didn't, do you remember how he explained it? By this I mean the supporting words to present the validity of cancelling the indicator before changing lanes.
When I think back, my parents taught me to drive, backed up by a small number of sessions with a local instructor. Neither they nor he taught me to overtake.
Many years later, I did the RoADAR course, (in the time of the blue book), but my tutor didn't provide practical guidance on overtaking, apart from passing parked vehicles, or wobbling cyclists.
So, before John Lyon, no practical guidance whatsoever. I don't think this is in any way uncommon; where would someone be taught, in a practical setting, how to overtake safely?
Some years after John Lyon, the IAM, same as RoADAR.
The single carriageway case is vastly different from the multi-lane dual carriageway.
For the latter, John was concerned about how long it is necessary to indicate such that other drivers see the flashing light, understand the meaning, and have considered how it might affect them. He reckoned a typical minimum of four seconds, but made it absolutely clear that I, as the driver, should look for reactions that show understanding.
He was also absolutely clear that I should not deviate from the middle of my lane while waiting for a reaction and, only then, move across to the adjacent lane, cancelling the indicator when the leading wheel crosses the line. To be clear, it's not cancelling then moving, it's moving and, part way through while still moving, cancelling. And, importantly, by holding the centre of the lane before moving, it's clear to other road users exactly what I'm doing.
This could apply for a return to the nearside, depending on the circumstances. For example, if I'm passing an HGV, I might start the return indicating while still passing, continuing beyond for at least the required distance, before moving across.
If I've put this badly, and it's in any way not clear, ask and I'll try to explain further.
For what it's worth, I often find in motorway driving that starting to indicate my intention to move out results in the following vehicle in that lane speeding up, making a nice space behind them I can use. Often enough I start indicating with that idea in mind.
Turning to single carriageway overtaking, John was extremely clear that the position of a car in the offside lane ought to be enough and, if the driver of the vehicle I intend to pass can't see it, there's precious little chance they will notice a small indicator on my offside.
Having moved out, he cautioned me strongly against moving up until I was completely sure it was safe to pass. Indeed, he made it abundantly clear that, after a slight close in following position, I should not move up while moving out. He bade me keep an eye on what was happening behind, to make sure the following vehicle didn't take away my safety return, saying it is better to abort the attempt and shut that down, rather than be caught out by having nowhere to go.
He was very big on not having nowhere to go.
John was also clear that, if there were no following vehicles, and it was patently safe to move out, then no indicating was required - no-one to indicate to. If there were following vehicles, and none were looking to overtake me, same situation.
The only time an indicator would be required would be if needing to negotiate with a following vehicle to see if they would allow me to go first. Signal, seek a reaction. It's not rocket science, after all.
There's something else. He was really big on planning. I should look for really good place to move out, so that I had a much better chance of converting the offside position into a successful overtake.
I suffered the ignominy of, under his despairing gaze, moving out and, taking so much time to assess, that the driver of the other more powerful car booted it and disappeared up the road ... only for me to catch it a short time later and be stuck behind it for some miles, having missed the perfect opportunity and alerted the other driver to my desire! John told me then that, being in a less powerful car, I should have kept my powder dry ...
Likewise, if I've not been entirely clear, ask ... but I'd still like answers to my questions, please.
Again, for what it's worth, I've paid for coaching by a few other retired Police driving instructors, both serving and civilian, all who taught at advanced level. So far the only aspect of my approach to overtaking that has been criticised is that sometimes I'm not as prepared as I should be, and potential opportunities have slipped away.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...
