I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Topics relating to Advanced Driving in cars
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jcochrane
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby jcochrane » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:32 am

Many years ago I read a research paper on stress recorded by subject business men over a period of time. In all cases the highest and most prolonged periods of stress were documented, not in a crucial meeting or anything else in their business life, but when driving between home and work or meetings.

When driving we place ourselves into the most stressful moments of our daily lives. (There are other one off, episodes we experience such as a family death, divorce etc. which have related high levels of stress but driving is something we do on a regular basis.) I do think it is important to learn stress management techniques.

I've recently started to use an Apple Watch to monitor heart rate throughout the day and night. My heart rate does rise ever so slightly from a normal average when driving. What is interesting is that it remains very constant even for drives of over 100 miles. The same degree of constancy is not seen though when just siting still at home. I think that may be because I give myself a moment or two to focus before starting a drive and then keeping a watchful eye on maintaining that focus/state of mind and using techniques I mentioned if needs be.

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akirk
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby akirk » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:17 am

ADC wrote:Also thanks for the suggestions of driving instructors/courses. I'm already aware of most of them and their great reputations, but the reason I haven't used them is simply distance. North of Carlisle/Newcastle would be where I'm looking, but I know that rather limits my options!


For the cost of a cheap Travelodge / Premier Inn I wouldn't let that stop me...
we have a funny attitude in this country to distances - anything more than about 30 miles seems a long way away... a cousin of mine recently popped over from Belgium to join me in London for a dinner - but he is from the USA where that would be seen as a local journey!

Alasdair

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Horse
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby Horse » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:39 am

jcochrane wrote: stress recorded by subject business men over a period of time. In all cases the highest and most prolonged periods of stress were documented, not in a crucial meeting or anything else in their business life, but when driving between home and work or meetings.


Foal went on a music tour to China two years ago.

Just as plans were being finalised, we had the Turkish airport terrorist attack. Pandemonium amongst parents of the 120+ kids going, as that's where the mid-flight stop would be.

One of the more level-headed parents pointed out that the kids were probably at greater risk travelling along the M4 to Heathrow than of travelling by air or from terror attacks.

Two weeks later . . . attempted coup in Turkey :lol:
Your 'standard' is how you drive alone, not how you drive during a test.

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jont-
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby jont- » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:05 am

ADC wrote:jont, good comment, and I should probably clarify. Car control to me is track based, you're right. That's the only safe place to explore the limits. This isn't what I want to do just now. To me, car control also deals with things well below the limit/things that change the limit, like variable road surfaces (material, texture, camber, debris). I would like an instructor that can talk about these sort of things, and their impact on vehicle dynamics, in the context of road driving. Not exploring the limit, but discussing the impact of for example a localised pitted road surface on grip levels on individual wheels, and the impact on vehicle balance. Rather than just 'watch out for that road surface, better slow down'. I guess from an engineering background, I like to talk about the technicalities of things as well as the end result. Not quite clear in my mind as you can probably tell, but car control IMO can be partially taught on the road, but not limit handling.

Ok, that makes a bit more sense. But go back a step - how do you know how much grip you have? How do you know if it's changed? How do you know if you're about to go past the limit? (it needn't be fast, the snow last winter was great for playing at slow speed).

Seeing a change in road surface won't tell you much, other than it's likely to be different from what you're experiencing now. But if you're not anywhere near the limit, why does it matter? What impact do you think it will have on balance/vehicle dynamics if you're nowhere near the limit of grip?

One of the problems I have with many modern cars is that they are too competent - the limits are so high that you're unlikely to encounter them on the road. But that also means learning to feel what they're telling you is hard. Overassisted steering is numb and it's /really/ hard to detect what's going on. Driving a car with great steering (cough, GT86, Lotus, Caterham) can be a revelation. Spending time on an airfield, where you can safely approach those limits can translate back to better road driving, because you start to develop a feel for what the car is telling you. It's not all going round corners sideways shouting "POOWWEEERRR", although that can be good fun too :lol:

From what you've described, a sesssion with someone like Don is probably going to be more instructive than Car limits, where there's more focus on recovering from errors.

Hoping Mr CW might chip in here with some thoughts....

ADC
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby ADC » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 pm

akirk wrote:For the cost of a cheap Travelodge / Premier Inn I wouldn't let that stop me...
we have a funny attitude in this country to distances


Yes, some people do. I've spent a lot of time in Australia where a 5-10hr drive is normal. A 5hr UK drive is fairly normal for me, and I've lost count of the number of European driving trips I've done over the last 10 years clocking up several thousand miles in a week. Unfortunately in this case it's not the distance to drive, but the time taken to do it and fit it in around work etc. Never say never, I'll keep my options open! I'm sure the opportunity will arise at some point.

ADC
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby ADC » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:36 pm

jont- wrote:Ok, that makes a bit more sense. But go back a step - how do you know how much grip you have? How do you know if it's changed? How do you know if you're about to go past the limit? (it needn't be fast, the snow last winter was great for playing at slow speed).


Yes, I spent a lot of time in the winter playing. That's an advantage of living this far north! And the winter before, and the one before that... In a mixture of FWD, 4WD and RWD cars. And some time on gravel/dirt roads before that, which was equally good fun, just at slightly higher speeds.

jont- wrote:Seeing a change in road surface won't tell you much, other than it's likely to be different from what you're experiencing now. But if you're not anywhere near the limit, why does it matter? What impact do you think it will have on balance/vehicle dynamics if you're nowhere near the limit of grip?


Yes, recognising a change in road surface is important. To be honest it doesn't matter if you are near the limit or not, grip levels change and suddenly the limit has moved. Being able to see when this might happen, and predict how the balance of the car will be modified, is useful. I'd like to be better at that. A change in slip angle as the road surface varies can be felt through the wheel/backside. The 'car' isn't at the limit, but a couple of the tyres can be much closer to it than the others due to localised variations in road surface. Anyway, it's a detail and not really relevent to my situation here. It sounds like I don't want to do a formal limit handling course! I definitely do, it's just not a priority at the moment.

jont- wrote:One of the problems I have with many modern cars is that they are too competent - the limits are so high that you're unlikely to encounter them on the road. But that also means learning to feel what they're telling you is hard. Overassisted steering is numb and it's /really/ hard to detect what's going on.


I've never had the pleasure of driving a really modern vehicle for an extended period. 205/306, Escort van, 320d, WRX, 120d. All of them more than 12 years old when I've owned them. I did have a Fiat 500 hire car last month and the steering was so assisted that the feedback through the wheel was almost zero, and the tyre noise was much more useful! Not much fun.

jont- wrote:Driving a car with great steering (cough, GT86, Lotus, Caterham) can be a revelation. Spending time on an airfield, where you can safely approach those limits can translate back to better road driving, because you start to develop a feel for what the car is telling you. It's not all going round corners sideways shouting "POOWWEEERRR", although that can be good fun too :lol:


I look forward to trying that one day. ;)

jont- wrote:From what you've described, a sesssion with someone like Don is probably going to be more instructive than Car limits, where there's more focus on recovering from errors.


By the sounds of it, I think you're right. He's been on my list for quite a few years now. Perhaps this is the kick up the backside I need to get something sorted out.

ADC
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby ADC » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:38 pm

jcochrane wrote:I've recently started to use an Apple Watch to monitor heart rate throughout the day and night. My heart rate does rise ever so slightly from a normal average when driving. What is interesting is that it remains very constant even for drives of over 100 miles. The same degree of constancy is not seen though when just siting still at home.


I use a HRM for training, but I've never thought about comparing resting HR to driving, or monitoring how/if it varies whilst driving... I can apply alarms so it beeps if it goes over a setpoint. Perhaps I could apply a setpoint just a few BPM above my normal driving HR, and then if the watch beeps I know to take a deep breath!

ADC
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby ADC » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Oh and by the way, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the constructive comments and warm welcome, it's much appreciated. It's good to see a relatively niche forum like this has a lot of regular posters with really constructive comments.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby GTR1400MAN » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:19 pm

An interesting discussion. I find driving much more stressful than riding my motorcycle. In fact, getting out for a ride on the GTR is a stress buster. If something happens with other vehicles when out on the motorbike I just deal with it and carry on. In the car it does gnaw away at me at times.

Strange.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

TheInsanity1234
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Re: I did a bad thing. How do I improve?

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:00 am

ADC wrote:I've been thinking about fitting a dash cam. I wonder how (or even if) it would affect my driving. Has anyone else fitted one and noticed a change in driving styles after doing it? If it made me think twice before incidents like this happen, but didn't negatively influene anything else, then it might be a good investment.

Since fitting my dashcam - I have caught myself thinking twice about some more dodgy moves that I used to do regularly. I certainly behave a bit better on the roads simply because I'm conscious of the fact I'm on camera!

But I am 20 so YMMV


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