Doing them a dis-service

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby GTR1400MAN » Sat May 28, 2016 12:05 pm

Ah, right. Of course revs are different, but the sequence of controls is the same. Reading too deeply.
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Gareth
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby Gareth » Sat May 28, 2016 1:36 pm

I would imagine sussex2 is referring to how some newly minted drivers, (and others), seem to raise the engine speed excessively before raising the clutch, and appear to have no understanding how to synchronise use of the accelerator and clutch.
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TripleS
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby TripleS » Sat May 28, 2016 3:52 pm

Gareth wrote:
GTR1400MAN wrote:I pull away the same whether on the flat or hill. Am I missing a trick?

It's easy for something to get so ingrained that you stop noticing small differences. Generally, to pull away up-hill, the engine speed needs to be raised slightly more before beginning to engage the clutch, although it rather depends on the amount of torque at or just above idle.


Does the amount of additional engine speed also depend on the steepness of the hill? I don't really understand these things, but I just wonder if it might. 8-)

fungus
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby fungus » Sat May 28, 2016 7:53 pm

jont- wrote:
ChristianAB wrote:Here we go again...

:lol:

Quite. What about ABS, Hill hold assist, electric handbrakes, synchromesh gearboxes etc etc etc :lol:

Fungus, I'm guessing you're not still running a 1950s car with a crash gearbox to train your pupils....


Not quite, but I've often thought that it wouldn't hurt to learn on something like that, and I would imagine that some would love it. Learn the basics first. What I mean by that is don't learn on a car that has technology that's not currently mainstream.

This is not mainstream technology, and how many 17-18 year olds could afford a car with the latest techy bits. Most will have a car four or five years old, and most likely a low powered petrol model which will behave quite differently from the diesel which they learnt in. This may not be a problem to those who are enthusiastic, but to those who have no interest other than a means of getting from A to B, it's frustrating, and sometimes confusing, when their pride and joy punishes them because their instructors car made it too easy for them.

I have had pupils who have had previous instructors who have rescued the stall because, "it's not good for the car". :roll: They are then confused when they do stall, and often find it difficult to understand why. And no, I don't rescue stalls, only if there's a safety issue.

It's frightening enough for many when they drive on their own for the first time without the added pressure of poor clutch control.

I gave up teaching in diesels because it allowed pupils to become lazy with the gas pedal and I got tired of telling them to use more gas. If they don't in my Fiesta, it punishes them.

Nigel.

TheInsanity1234
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Sat May 28, 2016 9:19 pm

sussex2 wrote:
TheInsanity1234 wrote:What on earth is clutch assist?


I've no idea but it is generally accepted that diesel cars are much more forgiving at low speed.

Well that is true, the Yeti was easier to perform a hill start in than the 1.4 Fiesta I drove as part of a under 17 driving lesson at Cardrome in Romford some time in 2009.

Also, oddly enough, I just could not perform a hill start in the Citigo I was driving as part of my under 17 driving lessons with the Admiral Young Driver scheme, but I had no problem in my instructor's Micra.

I have a suspicion that it was due to the fact that car didn't have a rev counter, so I had no idea how much I was meant to push down the accelerator, but in the Micra, it had a rev counter and I had no problem doing my trusted method of keeping the revs at around the same point whilst performing a hill start.

I find now I have no problem in my Citigo too.

Regarding the hill-hold assist, I was surprised to discover the Citigos have it as a standard feature on all models. I only discovered it by accident as I was reversing on to my driveway (which has a downhill gradient away from the road), and for some reason, I was in neutral while rolling back, then I put my foot on the brake to stop it, and realised I could still go a bit further back, so I slowly eased off the brake pedal expecting the car to start rolling back. But it didn't. For about 2 seconds, it remained stationary, then suddenly started rolling back.

So I was wondering why my car's braking system had broken already. Then I remembered the Transporter hill start assist, so I checked my car's manual, and sure enough, it's got it too.

I have to admit, I honestly don't find it useful at all due to having a habit of always using the handbrake, something that was hammered into me by every driving instructor I've encountered. :judge:

sussex2
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby sussex2 » Sun May 29, 2016 6:32 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:
sussex2 wrote:It appears, to me, that they are trying to do hill starts on the flat; something that irked me something rotten when I was teaching ab initio.
The problem lay in that the pupil would attempt this method of starting off irrespective of the slope, including downhill.

Huh? Hill start on the flat. Care to explain further.

I pull away the same whether on the flat or hill. Am I missing a trick?


It was that the pupil would pretty much always perform a hill start irrespective of the slope - even if downhill; clutch up to biting point then release handbrake.

Silk
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby Silk » Sun May 29, 2016 8:52 pm

sussex2 wrote:
GTR1400MAN wrote:
sussex2 wrote:It appears, to me, that they are trying to do hill starts on the flat; something that irked me something rotten when I was teaching ab initio.
The problem lay in that the pupil would attempt this method of starting off irrespective of the slope, including downhill.

Huh? Hill start on the flat. Care to explain further.

I pull away the same whether on the flat or hill. Am I missing a trick?


It was that the pupil would pretty much always perform a hill start irrespective of the slope - even if downhill; clutch up to biting point then release handbrake.


I must be missing something but, when I still had a car with a real handbrake, that's pretty much what I did. Obviously the process would be a bit more fluid and faster than a learner, but the same principle nonetheless.

Even with an electric handbrake, it's not a million miles away. The only difference being it releases automatically.

Jonquirk
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby Jonquirk » Sun May 29, 2016 9:02 pm

I think the point that Sussex2 is making is that his pupils are using the same technique for moving off which would result in the car lunging forward if used on the level or downhill. When making a hill start you bring the clutch up to the biting point until you see the nose of the car lift slightly then release the handbrake while feeding in more gas. An experienced driver will not have to bring the clutch so far into the biting point or feed in so much gas before releasing the handbrake when starting on the level, giving a smoother, quieter getaway.

sussex2
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby sussex2 » Mon May 30, 2016 7:06 am

Jonquirk wrote:I think the point that Sussex2 is making is that his pupils are using the same technique for moving off which would result in the car lunging forward if used on the level or downhill. When making a hill start you bring the clutch up to the biting point until you see the nose of the car lift slightly then release the handbrake while feeding in more gas. An experienced driver will not have to bring the clutch so far into the biting point or feed in so much gas before releasing the handbrake when starting on the level, giving a smoother, quieter getaway.


That's it, and it didn't take much to get the pupil to anticipate which method to use depending on the gradient.
Bearing in mind that we were teaching in Brighton where there are a lot of steets like this (the gradient looks worse in real life):

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.82934 ... 312!8i6656

TheInsanity1234
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Re: Doing them a dis-service

Postby TheInsanity1234 » Mon May 30, 2016 8:01 am

Brighton, the home to San Francisco-equse hills.


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