BRAKE - good news and bad news?

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jont-
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby jont- » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:23 pm

crr003 wrote:
Gareth wrote:
crr003 wrote:if the limit's 60 (ha!) and the upcoming bend needs 30, ISA will let you happily carry on at 60?

Don't be silly, there'll be a speed limit change every 5 yards to cater for this flaw in our roads.

The problem is the damage has been done - the number of people I go out with on NSL/50 rural roads and they will say with no hint of sarcasm, "why is the limit 60/50, I can't possibly do that here?" Of course, then the mind manipulation commences......
They truly believe the council should be telling them the speed for every bend.

Of course there are plenty of those bends where vision allows I can get the caterham to go round quite happily at 60mph. Should we be setting limits for their ecoshitbox running on ditchfinders when it's icy? :twisted:

martine
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby martine » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:44 pm

crr003 wrote:The problem is the damage has been done - the number of people I go out with on NSL/50 rural roads and they will say with no hint of sarcasm, "why is the limit 60/50, I can't possibly do that here?" Of course, then the mind manipulation commences......
They truly believe the council should be telling them the speed for every bend.

Yep - that's my experience of many young drivers as well. Advanced training opens their eyes (almost literally) but most never consider further training of course.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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Horse
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby Horse » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:36 pm

martine wrote:
crr003 wrote:The problem is the damage has been done - the number of people I go out with on NSL/50 rural roads and they will say with no hint of sarcasm, "why is the limit 60/50, I can't possibly do that here?" Of course, then the mind manipulation commences......
They truly believe the council should be telling them the speed for every bend.

Yep - that's my experience of many young drivers as well. Advanced training opens their eyes (almost literally) but most never consider further training of course.


Same radio segment, included an interview with a new driver who said - effectively:
- That she felt country roads were dangerous
- As a result, she drove slowly
- But would drive faster if she had extra training

If my interpretation is correct, that's a bit of a [dangerous] own goal for Brake!

IPlayer, BBC Radio Berkshire, Andrew Peach Show, 8.40 - 8.55 this morning if anyone wants to check my hearing.
My own views. For better or worse :)

crr003
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby crr003 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:52 pm

martine wrote:
crr003 wrote:The problem is the damage has been done - the number of people I go out with on NSL/50 rural roads and they will say with no hint of sarcasm, "why is the limit 60/50, I can't possibly do that here?" Of course, then the mind manipulation commences......
They truly believe the council should be telling them the speed for every bend.

Yep - that's my experience of many young drivers as well. Advanced training opens their eyes (almost literally) but most never consider further training of course.

How are they originally taught? "Driving the Essential Skills" says useful things like:
"look well ahead and try to assess accurately how severe the bend is and at what speed you need to be travelling to negotiate it under control"
"Remember, a bend can feel like a sharp corner to a driver who approaches it too fast - with disastrous results"
"Judging the correct road speed as you approach bends and corners takes practice and experience"
"The correct speed is the one which takes your vehicle round the bend under full control and the greatest safety for you, your passengers and other road users"
"Don't go into a bend too fast. If necessary reduce speed before you enter the bend"

(My bold/underline)

Can't argue with that, but there are no techniques given on how to assess that speed.

Depending on Test Centre location, learners might never go on a road above 40mph (or 30?!), never mind any rural roads anyway. The new test in December is supposed to offer longer routes so the possibility of accessing rural roads is increased, but that won't do much for the likes of Manchester, Birmingham, London etc.

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby GTR1400MAN » Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:00 pm

martine wrote:
crr003 wrote:The problem is the damage has been done - the number of people I go out with on NSL/50 rural roads and they will say with no hint of sarcasm, "why is the limit 60/50, I can't possibly do that here?" Of course, then the mind manipulation commences......
They truly believe the council should be telling them the speed for every bend.

Yep - that's my experience of many young drivers as well. Advanced training opens their eyes (almost literally) but most never consider further training of course.

But not just young drivers/riders. This was what I was saying on the local radio Facebook post about the Brake press release. I also mentioned how lots of drivers, of all ages are incapable of negotiating a right-hand bend without crossing the centre line. Basically lazy steering/driving.
Mike Roberts

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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby Gareth » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:32 am

crr003 wrote:but there are no techniques given on how to assess that speed.

How do drivers ever know how fast it is safe to go? Does it say nothing about being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear? Because if it does, nothing extra is needed for bends.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby Gareth » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:34 am

GTR1400MAN wrote:lots of drivers, of all ages are incapable of negotiating a right-hand bend without crossing the centre line. Basically lazy steering/driving.

No, I don't think it's that at all. It's that they've entered the bend too quickly and are afraid to go any closer to the left side of the road. If they entered enough slower, they'd have no problem in keeping to their lane.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...

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jont-
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby jont- » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:15 am

Gareth wrote:
GTR1400MAN wrote:lots of drivers, of all ages are incapable of negotiating a right-hand bend without crossing the centre line. Basically lazy steering/driving.

No, I don't think it's that at all. It's that they've entered the bend too quickly and are afraid to go any closer to the left side of the road. If they entered enough slower, they'd have no problem in keeping to their lane.

Nah, not quite that either. It's that they /think/ they've entered the bend too quickly, but have no idea about their vehicles dynamics and how much/little grip is actually available, so think shaving is a "safer" option, without also realising it leaves a problem at the end of the bend (unless you're scrubbing off speed all the way through).

ancient
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby ancient » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:06 am

Rural road driving isn't just about speed though is it? Surely the lessons will need to include that your distance from the vehicle in front needs to be at least one passing point and the test should include the ability to reverse a couple of hundred yards without finding the ditch :lol:

crr003
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Re: BRAKE - good news and bad news?

Postby crr003 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:13 am

Gareth wrote:
crr003 wrote:but there are no techniques given on how to assess that speed.

How do drivers ever know how fast it is safe to go? Does it say nothing about being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear? Because if it does, nothing extra is needed for bends.

Highway Code #125 says (in part):
"You should always reduce your speed when
*the road layout or condition presents hazards, such as bends
..."

So general advice to reduce speed.

HC #126, related to stopping distance gives us the famous:
"Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear."

Back with "Driving the Essential Skills", for bends, it goes on to say:
"The correct speed at a corner or bend will depend on a number of things, including
*how sharp it is
*whether there is other traffic about.

There are no hard and fast rules, and you will have to judge
*the correct position
*the proper speed for the corner or bend
*the gear most suitable for that speed

The secret for dealing with bends is to make sure that
*your speed is at its lowest before you start the turn
*you use the accelerator so that the engine is doing just enough work to drive the vehicle round the bend without going faster."


Further on in the section on bends there is this statement:
"Always drive so you can stop safely within the limit of your vision. Take extra care where your view is restricted."

So it is in there, but after a lot of woolly prose. And I would hazard a guess that hardly anyone ever reads these books anyway. (Theory is "learnt" by using multiple choice guessing apps).

I suppose one could rest safe in the knowledge that the ADI or mum/dad will be teaching the proper application.


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