20 MPH limits

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ChristianAB
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby ChristianAB » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:26 pm

sussex2 wrote:These limits are here to stay and as I mentioned before are in wide use across the EU and elsewhere.
However there is a difference in the UK in that the reduced limit has not been coupled with increased priority for pedestrians.
In other countries the various Highway Codes have been adapted to include this measure; many of them more than a decade ago so there has been plenty of time to adapt.
In the UK we have not done this so a confusion remains as to who is supposed to do what.


I thought the UK had a higher standard of driving than many of those EU countries?

To say that it's been used elsewhere for a long time does not make it right. That this increases safety is debatable.
But essentially, the issue is what happens when such limits are used where they are not warranted?
In France for instance, the default behaviour is to ignore the 30 km/h limits unless there is a camera nearby. In fact, my french friends often joke that the way to spot a British driver is to look for anyone who sticks very precisely to the speed limit.

Maybe you are right, we are yet to fully catch up to the european style of widespread disregard for speed limits.

ancient
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby ancient » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:39 pm

sussex2 wrote:These limits are here to stay and as I mentioned before are in wide use across the EU and elsewhere.
However there is a difference in the UK in that the reduced limit has not been coupled with increased priority for pedestrians.
In other countries the various Highway Codes have been adapted to include this measure; many of them more than a decade ago so there has been plenty of time to adapt.
In the UK we have not done this so a confusion remains as to who is supposed to do what.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/20161206-campaigning-news-Chris-Boardman-leads-cycling--motoring-and-pedestrian-groups-in-call-for-junction-rule-change-0
British Cycling has joined forces with The AA and pedestrian groups in calling for a 'universal’ rule to give way when turning in order create simpler, safer junctions for all road users.

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akirk
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby akirk » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:17 pm

that is itself a confusing set of proposals:

Drivers turning at a junction giving way to people cycling and walking who may be on your nearside, or crossing the road you wish to turn into.


Why would a driver need to give way to a cyclist, if they are crossing the road into which you turn, then they should be off their bike and are therefore pedestrians - if they are cycling on that road then they will be cycling away from the car turning in so as normal is fine - and motorists should already give way to pedestrians - so no change needed...

Cyclists turning at a junction giving way to people walking who are crossing the road you wish to turn into.


already meant to do this

Pedestrians getting increased protection when crossing a side road or other junction.


would give no change

so am confused having read that as to what benefit it would give...
the only reason I could see is if it acknowledges that cyclists are doing things that they shouldn't be doing currently (crossing a road on their bike / cycling up the wrong side of the road / generally not obeying the highway code) I am a keen cyclist as well as driver, but see no issues under the current highway code which mean that we would need to make those changes

Alasdair

crr003
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby crr003 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:22 pm

akirk wrote:.....so am confused having read that as to what benefit it would give...
the only reason I could see is if it acknowledges that cyclists are doing things that they shouldn't be doing currently (crossing a road on their bike / cycling up the wrong side of the road / generally not obeying the highway code) I am a keen cyclist as well as driver, but see no issues under the current highway code which mean that we would need to make those changes

Alasdair

But, there's research:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi ... s_2016.pdf
so it must be OK.......

gannet
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby gannet » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:48 pm

It boils down to drivers NOT treating cyclists as they would other (maybe faster/larger) road users...

How many times have I as a cyclist had to slow down because a driver has sought to pass me (sometimes closely, almost always quickly) only to want to slow down and turn left in front of me? I mean wait behind for oh 5s while I clear!?

I don't however see the need for these new sets of proposals - just think please drivers, and get off your phones ;) :)

oh and 20mph limits don't help in this situation as the speed differential is even closer, but the perceived idea that I must be faster than a cyclist still persists :(

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akirk
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby akirk » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:30 pm

gannet wrote:It boils down to drivers NOT treating cyclists as they would other (maybe faster/larger) road users...

How many times have I as a cyclist had to slow down because a driver has sought to pass me (sometimes closely, almost always quickly) only to want to slow down and turn left in front of me? I mean wait behind for oh 5s while I clear!?

I don't however see the need for these new sets of proposals - just think please drivers, and get off your phones ;) :)

oh and 20mph limits don't help in this situation as the speed differential is even closer, but the perceived idea that I must be faster than a cyclist still persists :(


agreed - this is where we see society trying to solve an issue with something unrelated...
the issue here is lack of respect by car drivers for cyclists / riders / pedestrians / generally vulnerable road users...
The issue with cyclists is that as a body they have (generalisation warning!) become quite militant of recent years - you don't see riders or pedestrians filming clips and ranting and standing on their rights in quite the same way, and I am sure many more would respect cyclists if they complied with the law... - but ultimately that respect and courtesy is the issue and sort that out and there would be very few issues...

Alasdair

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:47 pm

This story was on Radio 4's Today program this morning and I, and the presenter, were confused what the change being proposed actually was. Chris Boardman didn't explain it very well initially. The 'opposition' in the interview made a very good point (I thought) which was it could lead to an increase in cyclists 'undertaking' when approaching a junction on the left, on the basis they would have priority. Exactlu this is shown in the video on the link above. He made the point that it's a principle in the Highway Code that overtaking should be done on the right (unless the vehicles are stationary) and it's encouraging unsafe practice by cyclists coming up from the driver's nearside blindspot.

Edited: here's the iplayer link to the program this morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0854yk2

The cyclists story is 1:50 into the program.
Last edited by martine on Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

IcedKiwi
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Location: Sussex

Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby IcedKiwi » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:51 pm

akirk wrote:that is itself a confusing set of proposals:
Drivers turning at a junction giving way to people cycling and walking who may be on your nearside, or crossing the road you wish to turn into.

Why would a driver need to give way to a cyclist, if they are crossing the road into which you turn, then they should be off their bike and are therefore pedestrians - if they are cycling on that road then they will be cycling away from the car turning in so as normal is fine - and motorists should already give way to pedestrians - so no change needed...

I think the proposal is that if there's a cyclist behind you who intends to continue straight on, then you should have to stop, wait for him to undertake you, and then turn in.

Edit:cross posted with Martine

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:46 pm

IcedKiwi wrote:I think the proposal is that if there's a cyclist behind you who intends to continue straight on, then you should have to stop, wait for him to undertake you, and then turn in.

I think you are right but it is just one of many proposals in the cycling research paper linked above. Much of the report makes sense but I have grave misgivings about the 'cyclists going ahead have priority' bit.

Why encourage cyclists to take up an unsafe position (undertaking a vehicle turning left) by giving them them legal priority? The nearside blindspot is bad enough in a car, let alone a van or HGV.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

ancient
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby ancient » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:55 pm

akirk wrote:
gannet wrote:It boils down to drivers NOT treating cyclists as they would other (maybe faster/larger) road users...

How many times have I as a cyclist had to slow down because a driver has sought to pass me (sometimes closely, almost always quickly) only to want to slow down and turn left in front of me? I mean wait behind for oh 5s while I clear!?

I don't however see the need for these new sets of proposals - just think please drivers, and get off your phones ;) :)

oh and 20mph limits don't help in this situation as the speed differential is even closer, but the perceived idea that I must be faster than a cyclist still persists :(


agreed - this is where we see society trying to solve an issue with something unrelated...
the issue here is lack of respect by car drivers for cyclists / riders / pedestrians / generally vulnerable road users...
The issue with cyclists is that as a body they have (generalisation warning!) become quite militant of recent years - you don't see riders or pedestrians filming clips and ranting and standing on their rights in quite the same way, and I am sure many more would respect cyclists if they complied with the law... - but ultimately that respect and courtesy is the issue and sort that out and there would be very few issues...

Alasdair

I agree that the proposals are rather confused. I believe that (apart from what gannet said) they are trying to address the issues caused by road "engineers" putting cycle lanes down the nearside of roads and failing to plan the junctions properly: The upshot of which is faster, heavier and less vulnerable traffic trying to cross a traffic stream on their left, in order to turn (and frequently ignoring that traffic).

It is of course equally valid to argue that the problem with drivers as a body they have (generalisation warning!) become quite militant of recent years - you don't see riders or pedestrians complaining about speed cameras and ranting on about the government's "war" on them in quite the same way, and I am sure many more would respect drivers if they all complied with the law.


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