20 MPH limits

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Matt1962
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20 MPH limits

Postby Matt1962 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:02 pm

Sparked off by the air pollution thread - I wonder what people think of these? Our (by-passed) village high street has had one for years and I have always thought it 'a good thing'; but I'm not so sure now these are becoming common in towns and cities. They seem to be routinely ignored on longer connecting roads - I think because the speed does seem ridiculously slow in some of those circumstances.

I wonder if people get into the habit of ignoring unrealistic signage/laws and then move onto important ones - there definitely seem to be more red light runners and box junction blockers than was ever the case in the past.

Would it be better to revert to 30 and then attempt to enforce it (maybe move some of the camera vans and their operators from M-way bridges)?

gannet
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby gannet » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:16 pm

can of worms topic if ever there was one...

I personally have no problem with 20mph limits - in heavily built up areas - my speed wouldn't be much more in this environment anyway, it's when it starts to creep to be blanket coverage around towns that it seems OTT.

The other issue is the way they are currently 'enforced' with speed bumps/cushions... when these are used on bus routes they may as well not be there - the road my cul-de-sac is off is one and you can fly over the bumps with little adverse affect. Having said that I did return home once to be not able to get down my road - because of an upturned car in the road... still don't know how they managed it :o

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akirk
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby akirk » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:50 pm

I am very strongly in favour of speeds appropriate to the circumstances - and as an AD hopefully that is my approach anyway regardless of a limit being posted... So if I think about our village, I would have no issue with 20mph as a 'school protection zone' outside the primary school with a bit of 'road furniture' to support that, fractional pinch of the road to make people think... however other parts of the village, 30 is absolutely fine... In our neighbouring village the main road through has over the years decreased from 50 to 40 to 30 - you almost never see anyone on foot anywhere near it, def. no children, it is a very wide and straight road with wide verges between it and some house on one side and then a pavement no-one uses on the other side and fields - it is silly that it is 30, it should be 40 realistically and not surprisingly it is very rare for traffic to drive at anything other than c. 40mph - if you drive at under 30 you will be overtaken.

The concepts behind whole towns going 20mph are based on flawed and poor logic and are generally observed in their absence - for any town / highway planner to believe that the same logic should apply to all roads in e.g. Bristol is a nonsense and it is clearly politically driven not based on need or logic

Alasdair

Silk
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Location: South Glos.

Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby Silk » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:44 pm

Matt1962 wrote:Sparked off by the air pollution thread - I wonder what people think of these? Our (by-passed) village high street has had one for years and I have always thought it 'a good thing'; but I'm not so sure now these are becoming common in towns and cities. They seem to be routinely ignored on longer connecting roads - I think because the speed does seem ridiculously slow in some of those circumstances.

I wonder if people get into the habit of ignoring unrealistic signage/laws and then move onto important ones - there definitely seem to be more red light runners and box junction blockers than was ever the case in the past.

Would it be better to revert to 30 and then attempt to enforce it (maybe move some of the camera vans and their operators from M-way bridges)?


It's what you get when you allow lefty city councillors to have a say over road policy that affects visitors as well as non-driving lefty residents.

There's at least one dual-carriageway in Bristol with a 20MPH limit. Completely bonkers.

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:38 pm

Silk wrote:...There's at least one dual-carriageway in Bristol with a 20MPH limit. Completely bonkers.

Where's that Steve?
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:52 pm

Bristol has widespread 20s and Bristol Advanced Motorists were asked to join the consultation panel before implementation. Mr. Toad and I have attended meeting over the last 3 years. I am not in favour of blanket 20s but...

There are some common misconceptions about 20s:
  • they are unenforceable
  • or alternatively they are only there to raise money!
  • the Bristol elected Mayor (George Fergusson) introduced widespread 20s
  • their prime aim is road safety

Taking each in turn...

They most definitely are enforceable...there is a '20 speed awareness' course as an alternative to being prosecuted and around 100 people per week attend in Avon and Somerset.

The are currently only enforced where there is a specific problem eg drivers taking the mickey near a school or high street - if they were meant to be a cash generator, they have failed miserably.

The widespread 20s were already planned before the Bristol mayor was elected.

In Bristol the main stated reason for implementation was to encourage cyclists and pedestrians - NOT road safety. In fact the jury is still out as the 2 trial areas in Bristol set-up in 2010, had conflicting RTC results (one increased, one decreased). There is research to show cyclists like low traffic speeds and Bristol certainly has a traffic problem.

I don't like permanent 20s and I would much rather the money (some £2.3m in Bristol's case) be spend on driver education.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

Silk
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby Silk » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:37 pm

martine wrote:
Silk wrote:...There's at least one dual-carriageway in Bristol with a 20MPH limit. Completely bonkers.

Where's that Steve?


The A38 near Primark.

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:29 pm

Ahh yes...here?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.45806 ... 6656?hl=en

I wouldn't describe this as a bonkers example of a 20. This google streetview catches an example of perhaps why and as you know, there are usually several buses lined-up here with plenty of bustle, cyclists etc.

It doesn't annoy me - it's only a short distance and then you're in the thick of the very centre of Bristol and 20 (or less) is quite appropriate in my view.
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)

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akirk
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby akirk » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:34 pm

yes, maybe 20 is appropriate at that time of day - but plenty of other times when 30 or 40 could be absolutely fine...
drop the limit and you dumb down - a good driver should adjust anyway, the issue is that we are not training drivers in those basics, or they are not learning! How does it make sense to drive at 20 on a dual carriageway which is empty purely because on another day / at another time school children might be crossing - for decades we have coped with the concept that you adjust speed according to conditions, now we are on a fast track to finding the slowest safe speed and fixing it at that regardless of any logic at all...

Alasdair

martine
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Re: 20 MPH limits

Postby martine » Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:24 pm

akirk wrote:yes, maybe 20 is appropriate at that time of day - but plenty of other times when 30 or 40 could be absolutely fine...
drop the limit and you dumb down - a good driver should adjust anyway, the issue is that we are not training drivers in those basics, or they are not learning! How does it make sense to drive at 20 on a dual carriageway which is empty purely because on another day / at another time school children might be crossing - for decades we have coped with the concept that you adjust speed according to conditions, now we are on a fast track to finding the slowest safe speed and fixing it at that regardless of any logic at all...

Alasdair

Yes I agree in principle but it's vary rare this road is quiet day or night. There are other examples around Bristol of where a 20 is painful...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.47664 ... 6656?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.48055 ... 6656?hl=en
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)


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