Mobile phones

Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere - doesn't have to be AD related.
Matt1962
Posts: 108
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby Matt1962 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:37 pm

'You might think it doesn't show, but it does.
You might think you're immune - so why are you different from so many others?'

The 'animatedly talking' bit gives tends to give it away. I'm sure we have all seen similar driving examples where the mobile phone was replaced by screaming children etc. Broadly speaking, anyone actually interested in their driving tends to prioritise it over other activities. We are different because we don't tend to drive everywhere at 40mph or sit in the middle of a traffic light queue with brake lights on. I would hope we are equally different enough to judge what is safe use of a hands free phone. Having a heated argument is clearly not safe use, so the phone goes off. Just another decision, like increasing your following distance on a wet road.

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jont-
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby jont- » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:12 pm

Those who are happy on hands free - have you thought about videoing your drive while on a call and reviewing it afterwards to see if your driving is as good as you think?

One final anecdote - Dad was a passenger in a car with one of his colleagues, who during the drive had a call on hands free (happened to be a sales rep who probably spent a lot of time doing that). Some time later, the driver received an NIP for running the lights at a level crossing on that journey. He came to ask Dad whether he had run the lights as he had no memory of it. Dad affirmed that he had. (I'd hope it was only just changing or Dad would have said something!). Presumably as a driver he thought his use of it was safe.

waremark
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby waremark » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:14 pm

Horse wrote:You might think it doesn't show, but it does.
You might think you're immune - so why are you different from so many others?

Everything about our approach to driving is different from the norm. We are weird (about driving, and speaking strictly for myself).

waremark
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby waremark » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:26 pm

Matt1962 wrote:'Would you be happy to initiate and/or answer calls while the man from Banbury or Bridgend were seated next to you? If not, why not?'

I would hazard a guess that YOU might not have your radio on in that situation, nor would you have directions running on your satnav? If not, why not? I assume also that pilots shouldn't communicate with air traffic control until they have landed and parked?


I did say I would not expect to drive to Masters standard. I would not speak on the phone when driving in a demanding environment or when trying to demonstrate my best driving to the men from Banbury or Bridgend (http://www.high-performance-course.com/course-managers for anyone who wants to know who he is referring to) or to anyone else.

I do often have the directions running on the satnav and the screen in view in those and any other circumstances. On unfamiliar roads, I think the satnav helps rather than hinders.

I have a PPL. Not only do you have to talk to controllers while flying, you also often have to jot down notes of what they say to you - while trying to keep a lookout through the screen. Luckily there is a big and relatively empty sky, and going a few feet off course is not quite as serious as when driving a car. However, an ability to multitask is essential.

ancient
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: Mobile phones

Postby ancient » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 pm

jont- wrote:
akirk wrote:I can keep my eyes on the road at all times, I can prioritise the activities such that I stop talking on the phone if the road needs more concentration etc.
That scenario is more akin to a conversation with the person next to me in the car... and is understandably legal

No you don't and no it's not. Go and read the bloody research. People don't prioritize the road, they prioritize the conversation. The passenger is more likely to spot that you need to prioritise the road and stop talking.

I find this an odd reply, almost as if jont didn't read the even the news item, let alone the research!

The researchers found that conversations may use more of the brain’s visual processing resources than previously understood. Having a conversation which requires the driver to use their visual imagination creates competition for the brain’s processing capacity, which results in drivers missing road hazards that they might otherwise have spotted.

Because conversations were what they were looking at. In fact Dr Hole said:
anything which causes drivers to imagine something visually, including passengers, can interfere with driving performance because the two tasks compete for similar processing resources.

Anything.... anything that causes you to imagine something visually has this effect. That vivid radio play, the language course on the cd player, the funny joke your passenger insists on telling you, the solo rant you are rehearsing of what you are going to tell your boss when you see her!

Except of course, if you don't indulge those images and instead switch to a less visually demanding radio station, don't split your attention to a language course, tell your passenger to shut up (no jont, you and the good Dr are wrong, they don't all do so spontaneously) and don't plan what you will do at your destination (concentrate on the job in hand); oh and on the hands free "I am driving and will not be concentrating on what you are saying: I just needed to pass on this information [message content]". Or indeed disengage from the experiment (I'm not buying the article to check, but I'll bet that wasn't allowed).

The paper is titled 'Imagery-inducing distraction leads to cognitive tunnelling and deteriorated driving performance' not 'passing on a message after pressing a button causes you to crash'.

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Strangely Brown
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Location: Sussex

Re: Mobile phones

Postby Strangely Brown » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:37 pm

waremark wrote:I did say I would not expect to drive to Masters standard. I would not speak on the phone when driving in a demanding environment or when trying to demonstrate my best driving to the men from Banbury or Bridgend.


Perhaps that's where we differ. I try to drive to same standard whether they are with me or not. i.e. I do not have one standard of driving for tests or assessments or because someone specific is with me and a different, lesser standard for everyday use. When they look at my drive and ask me, "is that an accurate representation of your normal, everyday driving" I can honestly answer "yes". It may sound odd but I do try not do anything on my own that I would not be prepared to do with one of them sat next to me.

Matt: The reason I would not have the radio/music on in the same situation is simply because neither of us would wish to talk over it and I would be unlikely to have a satnav on because they would be the one giving the directions. The absence of radio/satnav is for convenience and/or politeness, not because music or directions are distracting.

As for the pilot analogy... As Mark has pointed out, there is a bit more space up there.

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akirk
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Location: Bristol

Re: Mobile phones

Postby akirk » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:51 pm

Strangely Brown wrote:Perhaps that's where we differ. I try to drive to same standard whether they are with me or not.


I think that is a great attitude - and perhaps that is where I fall short as an AD - I am a realist, for many reasons I do not aim for perfection in driving (heresy I know :)), for me AD meets a couple of goals:
- a personal satisfaction in doing things better
- a desire to prove to myself what I can / could do
- a desire to increase my contingency (safety margin) in the knowledge that reality says that there will be times in driving when I am tired / cross / frustrated / annoyed / etc. By increasing that safety margin, by being more capable I can be more confident that when my concentration is not 100% some of that slack will be taken up by that increased contingency and I will still be safe...

As such I do not aim for perfection but to be at a level above safety / good - that means that I will not worry about occasional use of a phone in an appropriate / legal / safe manner... Some of the examples above are very interesting, but, not necessarily comparisons - it is the equivalent of saying that you have seen someone driving erratically through a village at 90mph / seen someone having an accident doing 150 round a country bend - therefore we shouldn't do 65mph down an open country A road.

I guess we will have different views, but occasional, appropriate hands-free use is a long way from adding a facebook status on your handset and isn't an issue for me...

Alasdair

WhoseGeneration
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby WhoseGeneration » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:57 pm

I probably paraphrase but, Lewis Hamilton, "Don't talk to me while I'm in the corners man".
Then, from a long time ago, an IAM promotional publication, again paraphrasing, "Racing drivers only have to drive on a circuit, road driving is much harder".

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GTR1400MAN
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Re: Mobile phones

Postby GTR1400MAN » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:04 pm

What hope is there on any sensible consensus out in the real world when the members of an advanced driving forum can't agree what is, and isn't acceptable use? :roll:

The bottom line is: It DOES distract you, to varying degrees. There are arguments for occasional use. The great unwashed can't be trusted to make sensible choices, so a blanket ban is the only answer ... even if some (including on here) won't like it.
Mike Roberts - Now riding a Triumph Explorer XRT. My username comes from my 50K miles on a Kawasaki 1400GTR, after many years on Hondas of various shapes and styles. - https://tinyurl.com/mikerobertsonyoutube

Matt1962
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Mobile phones

Postby Matt1962 » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:23 pm

GTR1400MAN wrote:What hope is there on any sensible consensus out in the real world when the members of an advanced driving forum can't agree what is, and isn't acceptable use? :roll:

The bottom line is: It DOES distract you, to varying degrees. There are arguments for occasional use. The great unwashed can't be trusted to make sensible choices, so a blanket ban is the only answer ... even if some (including on here) won't like it.


It probably shows that the arguments are not quite as black and white as the Daily Mail might have it. There are good solid arguments from both sides here. I'm not sure that a blanket ban would be remotely feasible - how would anyone determine whether the driver or a passenger was using the hands free?


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